Sonny Liston

Fanciful fairy tales, I really thought he was better than this. It's all blatant ,biased tosh.

 

:huh

In what way ? Because Im not 100% convinced that Machen's story is true ?

 

I think it was Jerry Isienburg { I may have spelled his name wrong} a pretty respected boxing writer that relayed a story about Joe Polino having a substance intended to blind Clay that he threw under the ring. Could be lie but who knows? No question something got into his eyes.

 

Something for you to digest, Machen fought Liston with an arm injury.

 

What's that got to do with it ?

 

You asked for scoring...I gave you scoring.

You say Liston won 6 out of the first 8 rounds. I say ive never heard anyone scoring Ali behind in that manner over the first 8 rounds. You may have scored it that way and you may be the only one who did....at least the ones that were there that night.

 

Its got to do with you talking about a fight the details of which you know next to nothing about.

 

I've seen the Liston-Machen fight. I'm not convinced he was blinded by a substance in his eyes, administered by a cheating Liston. I can't recall seeing anything that looked that way. McGrain has the fight and seems to agree with that.
I've made no claims whatsoever to be an expert on that particular fight, and I don't claim to know that Machen was NOT blinded.
But I do object to the suggestion that it must be so because Machen said it was so (four years later).

I'm not sure which part of that you have a problem with.

 

Liston got back in the fight once, in round 3. That doesn't really mean he would hav been able to do it again, but it's something to consider. It really had nothing to do with him and more with Ali. Sonny was old, how old exactly is up to anyone's speculation, and sure, he looked tired in round 6. My point is that Ali looked more than ready to quit, therefore I have my doubts about him beating the sh*t out of Liston for the rest of the fight.

About the Cooper fight, I saw Henry truly hurting Ali with seconds to go in round 4. With all the controversy going on, my opinion is that Dundee did use smelling salts, which I understand were illegal in England. I'm also inclined to believe that Dundee created the glove incident, which gave his fighter more time to recover. If my memory serves me correct, there's missing footage of the film I saw on youtube, but if you say your dad saw the fight live, I'd be glad to hear his version of the story.

 

No opinion here, just some comments.
I've not read all the posts.
We're not sure exactly how old Sonny was. The 1917 BS is just that! BS.
The records say 1932 but they're not substantiated. I would say sometime between 29-32 would be/could be fairly accurate tho Chuck Wepner said he looked like he was pushing 50 at their 'staredown' in 1970.
IMO Sonny was another of many fighters that didn't have the proper backing at the right time. Brought along properly, he may have been a top contender by the early fifties and, again IMHO, would have completely overwhelmed The Rock.
In and out of jail, etc...controlled by the mob...etc...his death? Who knows? Misguided terrible childhood, moved around, etc...In my mind, had he had no head demons and a clean lifestyle he clearly would have been one of the baddest MF'ing HW's EVER! But, to be honest, many wannabes have had similar stories.
Clay-Cooper? Simply urban legend that 'lost fight footage' had Clay given an extra minute or two. I believe the consensus is the time between the 4th and 5th round was about 65-70 seconds. Yet Angie may have played a little 'torn-glove' thing with the refs (tho no new gloves were issued to Clay)
I will say this tho, Henry's on-spot clock on Clay was harder than Frazier's 15th round bomb on Ali in the FOTC. Joe's 11th round left hook was much more powerful. Anyone notice after Cooper decked him, Clay rose quickly, went to his corner, sat on his stool and, five seconds later, got up and started walking to?...nowhere! He was clobbered tho the eventual decision was just and in keeping with the way history has played out.
My somewhat weak $0.02.

 

Sorry Shavers not Liston.

 

There is no missing footage from the Cooper bout. There was little if any delay. More conspiracy theories from the Ali haters.

 

No, you're correct. If Sonny wanted to blind Machen with something on his glove then I'm sure it wouldn't have been too hard. We all know that the first thing a fighter looks for when he loses is excuses as to why it happened. If there was any dirty play in this bout Machen would have jumped right on it. Probably would have used it to get the pressure on for a rematch, which Machen desperately wanted based on the interviews I've read.

As it stands, Machen says nothing until years later. Not very convincing evidence for me.