Sonny Liston

Yes, I checked that too, before I even mentioned his illnes. Neither of us is mistaken on that point.
Your mistake was your misunderstanding of my statement, and then you accuse me of not admitting my mistake.
It's no biggie to me.

 

I've went back and watched Listons bout with Machen and both Williams fights. I don't see any time where Machen appears in distress although he did state that although in pain he did not allow Liston to see he was impaired. He did seem to fight the same style for all 12 rounds.

I see no issue in the second Willams bout.

The first Willams bout is curious. Williams is beating Liston for two rounds...hurting him...outboxing him. All of a sudden things change in the third and there is a point where Willams wipes his eyes with his gloves. Film quality is poor so I can't see blinking or any very obvious signs......there is however a distinct shift in how Williams is fighting and Liston then scores a ko.

Since yesterday I have read one interview with Dundee where he states whatever got into Alis eyes may have gotten first onto Alis forehead.....then dripped down with sweat into his eyes. He felt for sure it was Monsels solution used to treat the gash on Listons cheekbone. Monsels solution when in contact with the eyes can cause burning, irritation and redness.

 

Monsels solution is a hemostatic substance made of iron sulphate it sets like concrete in a cut, cauterizing the skin it is easily detected and has been banned for many years because it has to be chiseled out after the fight ,and it promotes bad scarring of the injured area.
The last time I saw it used was by Matt Franklin's corner when he fought John Conteh the first time. Liston's corner is widely suspected of having put Tiger Balm Linament on his gloves whether it is true, quien sabe?

 

Argue all you want about Liston's abilities, but one thing is for sure; Ali never been a prime Liston. Yet the Ali fights are all the average guy knows about. Sonny beat Williams and Folley in their prime. Ali beat them very impressively later on, when both were past it!

A prime Liston is a fight for anyone, in my opinion.

 

Head to head prime Liston is a monster for most heavyweight champions to deal with imo. The Sonny who beat Williams would have given Ali a good nights work ,imo.

 

Got revived by smelling salts, though. Disqualification time!

 

Some corner's still use it though it's been banned a long time.

 

It is difficult to Gage exactly how great Liston was. It is easier to imagine how good he might have been than actually know. His prime was short.

He breezed through Williams and harris but neither had the best resume.

Machen and Foley were good wins but all champions should have wins like this on their back catalogue. Jack SHarkey had wins as good.

All that stands out is the Patterson wins. Let's examine those. of all the rated fighters Floyd faced (and they outnumber the top class men Liston ever fought ten fold) nobody else did that to Floyd. Either Liston was that good or Floyd was that bad both times ....or Sonny just had a hex over Patterson.

Personally, for what ever reason I don't think Patterson could perform against Liston. I think he gave Floyd the creeps.

Listons age comes into question only when he lost. After Patterson came the ALi fights where he went rusty after having too many short fights for too long. His title resume is not good. 3 one sided one round fights (2-1) and the corner retirement.

 

Many thanks':good