Sonny Liston's resume

Most of the guys Liston fought after Ali were reasonable journeymen, lower end of top 10 & some way short of serious contenders but not complete tomato cans.

Gerhard Zech was a useful but not outstanding European heavy.

Amos Johnston was rugged but not a great puncher , he once controversially outpointed Henry Cooper in London & held Karl Mildenberger to a draw in Germany, these were the two leading leading Euro heavies of the period. Brian London had him on the verge of being stopped in Liverpool before Johnson was disqualified prior to losing to Liston. He then lost a decision to Oscar Bonavena & slipped out of any contention.

Dave Bailey was very much B class & was well into his mid 30’s when he fought Sonny. His overall record was pretty poor, he did fight Karl Mildenberger a year or so before meeting Liston. It was a 10 rounder in which Mildenberger was to supposed to win comfortably. However Bailey floored him several times & was the victim of an outrageous points defeat which caused much derision. He was invited back to meet the aforementioned Zech & caused another upset by blasting Zech out in two rounds. Ring magazine was impressed enough to consider rating him in their top 10 but in his next couple of fights, also in Germany, he was stopped & then folded easily against Liston. The rest of his career was spent fighting in Germany, most of which he lost.

Elmer Rush was a reasonable heavy whose main claim to fame was a draw with Eddie Machen. He was never in Liston’s class, even the older Liston, & was floored numerous times before being stopped. Curiously for a power puncher Liston failed to keep him down.

Bill MacMurray was strictly a journeyman who was beaten any time he moved up in class, did go the distance with a few good fighters though.

Billy Joiner was fairly average & mostly lost when facing better opposition. Only the best hitters stopped him though, so was fairly durable, he met Liston twice , retiring after 7 in the first & going the distance in the second.

Henry Clark was actually a useful young heavy at the time he fought Liston. Skilful boxer & had a pretty good career overall but lacked a killer punch which hampered him. This was a good win for Liston.

Sonny Moore was one of those fight anywhere guys who lost more than he won, not a good match.

Willis Earls had no business being put in with Liston.a complete mismatch

Roger Rischer was a California State champion & had a respectable record. He came to the UK & outpointed Henry Cooper, flooring him twice in what was supposed to be a comfortable 10 ten rounder for Cooper. He failed to capitalise on it though, losing on points to Thad Spencer & then being blasted out in one round by Cooper’s old rival Brian London. His career was on the wane by the time he met Liston.


Amos Lincoln was another useful fighter, one you had to beat in order to progress.
He was just beginning to go downhill when he met Liston, but Sonny’s 2 round blastout was a good victory over the usually durable Lincoln.

George’Scrapiron’ Johnston was another teak tough journeyman who never troubled the ratings compilers but was a good ‘opponent’ for any rising heavy.

Leotis Martin was probably the best fighter Liston met on his comeback. He could look either very good (Mildenberger/Spencer) or terrible (Ellis).Likely he would have got a title shot if not for his detached retina.

Chuck Wepner was never a great fighter but fought them all in a very colourful career.His style was tailor made for Liston.

 

Been spelled out fairly nicely. He was the best HW in the world for no fewer than three calendar years before he even received a title shot. For Heavyweights, title reigns would seem to weigh more significantly as there isn't much they can accomplish from a "pound-for-pound" perspective where multi-division dominance and moving up to beat other great fighters in higher weight classes earns bookoo points.

You can have superb skills, which he did.
You can be top rated H2H, which he is.
You can clean out all available opposition, which he had.
You can dominate at the top for an extended period time, which he otherwise would've. Irrefutably so.

One of the most avoided fighters in ring history, at any weight. One of the best punchers of all-time, at any weight.

Top 5.

 

but he didn't clean out Cassius Clay.

 

I think he means in the years preceding Clay. Which is a fair assessment.

 

And may those fights forever stay shrouded in mystery.

I'm not making a case for GOAT here, and I was speaking primarily about his active rampaging prime of 1958-62. He KOs Patterson in the same fashion every time, in any of those years. He beats the same rated contenders, only he's doing it under the title of World Heavyweight Champion and adding numerous 'defenses' to his list of accomplishments. It's not just winning fights, but the fashion he did it in.

Not acknowledging Liston as the premiere HW in the world during those years is a little like arguing Spinks as the best HW during 1986-87. It's simply ridiculous. And after a delay, you find out.

 

Don't forget Ingemar Johansson ! Surely he was the no.1 guy in 1958 and '59

 

Indeed, Ingo is one guy Liston missed, although admittedly he was tied up with Patterson and Sonny did beat the man who came out on top there, twice, within six minutes!

 

From: The Case For Sonny Liston by Charles Farrell

I give Floyd a lot of credit. It took serious stones to do the right thing, no matter the cost.

 

Here's more from that column, if anyone is interested in the read or hasn't seen it:

Http://coxscorner.tripod.com/liston_cf.html
Originally appeared in Boxingranks Mar. 2005 and put up in Cox'sCorner

 

Patterson wins are great, after that it's a solid, but mostly unspectacular lot. I think he fits in anywhere from 8-13 on an ATG Heavyweight list.

 

Wasn't the Summerlin fight very close? Liston lost to Marshall, and took some tough journeyman not mentioned here the distance.




Rating Liston is difficult because his opposition wasn't the best, and sometimes he fouled or allegedly cheated by putting a burning substance on his gloves. I think F. Pacheco said as many as 4 fighters complained about such tactics in his 12 greatest rounds show.

 

I can't find room in the top ten but he certainly kicked arse from 60-64.

My top ten is, in no order: louis, ali, johnson, holmes, foreman, frazier, lewis, marciano, tyson, holyfield.

Liston is amongst the likes of wlad, dempsey, jeffries, sullivan, wills, langford, jackson, charles, walcott, patterson etc.

 

h2h top 5.resume wise top 10.

 

I think Sonny Liston is a great H2H champion but his 1958-62 run is over sold somewhat. Until Liston fought for the title it was tied up between a guy who beat machen quicker than he could and another guy tied to rematches he had not fought yet. Liston was simply an outstanding contender in 1960 alone, not an "uncrowned champion" for a number of years. The wins recorded in 1959 and 1960 Liston was eclipsed both times by the title winning efforts of ingo and patterson. in 1961 liston simply marked time against nobodys until he got a shot in 1962 off the back of what he did in 1960. Wining against floyd proved liston was without doubt the best in the world, but he had to beat him to do it. until then he was an outstanding contender who beat harris beter than the current champion but had not beat machen as easily as an ex champion had.

wiliams, folly, harris and machen were at least winning fights when liston fought them, though all had been knocked out quite recently by other fighters. These were his most worthy wins but he recorded them during the ingo-patterson triangle and its only one year. Its not quite "cleaning out" all the contenders over a number of years.

The bunch of guys Liston fought earlier, ben wise, daniels, ernie cabb, mederos, whitehurst, bethea, valdez, besmanoff, howard king and wesphal were losing fights at the time Liston squashed them, each lost their previous fight coming in against liston. Even dejohn had lost 2 of his last 4 fights, these were wins other contenders could and would acheive. again, Sonny Liston is still the greatest fighter of that period but lets not get carried away.

 

Completely agree with every word here :good

Lineage is overrated and had liston got his shot in 59 and fought the exact same opponents he'd have had a more relevant championship reign but his resume and achievements would remain exactly the same.