SRL or James Toney? Who was the more..

Leonard by far and its not even close...

 

Toney has forgotten more about boxing than Leonard ever new. If its showboating and hit and run you want then Leonard is your man. If its pure old school boxing you are looking for Toney is the only choice.

An old, out of shape Toney would never take the type of systematic beatings that Leonard took from either Norris, or Comacho. Too knowledgeable.

 

No, a young Toney gets his head punched off by a Sunday school teacher in Dave Tiberi instead and needs a gift decision to get the 'win.' Don't see that happening with a 23-year-old Leonard.

Massive fan of Toney but certain styles have always and would always give him big problems even in his peak years. In terms of technique and correct form then you could argue that he was at least the equal of Leonard, but Ray had the far better killer instinct of the pair and was able to adapt his style a lot better than Toney as well.

Fact is, Toney has been outboxed and outfought several times and just rolling out the tired, old "he was weight drained, had to lose (insert made-up, fanciful number of lb here) in a few weeks before the fight" excuse doesn't cut the mustard, I'm afraid.

Being outboxed for six or seven rounds by Nunn, struggling twice with Griffin (I thought Toney should have been 1-1 against him in fairness), needing a gift to beat Tiberi and then being absolutely humiliated by Jones is, in general, nothing to be ashamed of, but when you're trying to claim that someone the man who has racked up that form line in his peak years has "forgotten more about boxing than Ray Leonard will ever know", there's definitely something going amiss.

 

No way to tell. What appears like natural skill takes thousands of hours of hard work to develop. The fighter that appears more natural could, in reality, be more "manufactured" because more work went in to getting him to that level.

 

I have never seen Toney get on his toes and use lateral movement.

Maybe it has happened but I cannot remember a case. Lateral movement is a tool that helps boxers get timing, create space, and get out of trouble. If this part is missing from Toney's tool box then he is not on the level of Leonard, Whitaker, Duran, Pep, Robinson, etc in terms or technical skill.

 

Agreed. Toney was quite exceptional but Leonard was more versatile and just that one notch above.

 

All very well if one has an agenda to suit their own particular favourite fighter.

I'll ask once again. When in 90 fights, through multiple weights was Toney ever beaten up, dropped numerous times and stopped?

Maybe, just maybe, there was a reason for that.

If it is dancing that floats your boat, good for you. Reflexes get old, which is why Leonard got fvcked when they let him down, the same as Jones. Toney could ALWAYS rely on the fundamentals of boxing, which he had in abundance.

 

No agenda. I'm not exactly twisting facts (neither are you), am I? Toney had all those struggles. Not the kind of form you'd expect from the infallible boxer he's often painted as.

Toney aged better than Leonard, no doubt. But I'm looking at both men in or around their peaks. Toney's peak, be it in terms of results or all-round boxing ability, could never get as high as Leonard's did - but it did sustain itself at its level better over a longer period.

 

Toney was a damn good fighter... BUT, how many times did he clearly beat a top fighter?

D10 and W10 Sanderline Williams. Williams was decent but not a top fighter. He gave Toney problems.

WSD12 Merqui Sosa. Sosa was tough as old boots (but not really a top fighter) and gave Toney a very good fight.

KO11 Michael Nunn- Nunn outboxed him until getting stopped in the 11th round.

WSD12 Reggie Johnon- Johnson dropped him, cut him, and appeared to outbox him but lost by SD12.

D12 and WMD12 Mike McCallum- McCallum gave him plenty of problems. In the rematch McCallum outlanded him by 100 punches but still lost.

WSD12 David Tiberi- Tiberi (who?) was robbed.

 

He was beaten up dropped and ate A LOT of leather in the 2nd Sam Peter fight, maybe that's why he slurs his speech so bad...

When Leonard was beaten up by Camacho he was already 41 and pushing it, and was wise enough to say that's it unlike Toney..:-(

Leonard always came into fights in shape and not blubbery or drained, the last time Toney looked good was against Jirov and that was many years ago...

 

I actually liked Toney more at CW and even HW (when he was in decent shape).

He looked good vs. A. Wshington KO10, R. Garbey W10, he struggled vs. T. McGroom though, he looked good vs. S . Montana KO2 and S. Aspieli W10, he fought very well vs. V. Jirov.

At HW he looked good vs. Holyfield, Ruiz, Guinn, Rahman (1st fight), and Peter (1st fight).

 

More NATURAL? Leonard, and it's not even close. Toney had a lot of natural talent, don't get me wrong, but he clearly wasn't born with the same type of physical gifts Leonard had.

 

That will do me nicely as to which one had the most skill. One comes in in fantastic shape to win, the other can come in and beat guys looking like a tub of lard.

Leonard had reflexes, and speed. He is not fit to be mentioned in the same breath as Toney, when it comes down to fighting ability. Toney is like an Archie Moore but without the KO power.

 

That will do me nicely as to which one was the most natural fighter. One comes in in fantastic shape to win, the other can come in and beat guys looking like a tub of lard.

Leonard had reflexes, and speed. He is not fit to be mentioned in the same breath as Toney, when it comes down to fighting ability. Toney is like an Archie Moore but without the KO power.

Furthermore when Toney was 34 the same age that Leonard was getting torn a new ******* by Norris, James was beating guys on his way to winning the IBF Cruiser title from Jirov. Then next fight stopped Holyfield, only the 2nd man to do so, the other being the " huge " Bowe.

Oh and at 40 - 41 Toney was beating Oquendo, Greer, and Reed. Hardly top tier, but good enough at that age, and lack of discipline in training.