Stamina vs Stamina, Marciano vs Frazier

Right, just a little strange that decided to use that fight to tally (I'd imagine it's one the fights where he threw the least amount of punches per round bearing obvious early KO exceptions).

I might tally his punch totals for LaStarza II or the Moore fight.

 

in manila both ali and frazier were trying to kill each other with every shot so don't bring this tippy tap crap punching into the discussion.

 

I have most of those STATS somewhere. I know he did throw more after he became Champion.

 

You been listening to monte cox too much. Joe Louis doesnt count? I think Louis one punch knockout over Durable Heavyweight Champion Lee Savold proves he was still a dangerous puncher. At 6'2 215lb, Louis was one of the biggest heavyweights around at the time, and his punches were going to have alot of force on 185lb men. Power is the last thing to leave a fighter.

 

Yep, and on top of that, Walcott has underrated one punch power (And being a completely ripped near 200 lb heavyweight fighter at that).

 

I agree that the power is the last to go BUT the timing and speed of a punch is what usually gets you a knockout, and that was missing.

Joe Louis was past his prime before he fought Marciano. His record was 61-1 with 52 KO's in his 1st 62 bouts. In his last 9 bouts before he fought Rocky, Louis was 8-1 with only 3 KO's.

Lee Savold was KO'ed 10 times during his career and was 6-4-2 going into the bout with Louis. He use to train in Paterson, New Jersey during that time and I know several people that knew him pretty well. In fact a few of them were sparring partners for him. They all said that he was well past his best days when he fought Louis and then Rocky, and was glad when he finally hung them up.
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I go with Smokin Joe.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this; Joe's constant bobbing and weaving round in and round out while maintaining a pretty decent punch output suggests that he has a lot in the tank. Punch Stats aside, I think its quite obvious that Joe Frazier's style is more taxing that than Rocky Marciano's style. Not to mention Joe faced bigger opponents which adds on more wear on your body.

 

I think that was mentioned before BUT maybe I am getting all these different threads mixed up.

Good call though, and I agree with you 100%

 

I have not seen anyone claim that Ali was severly past his prime. I've heard this more or less said about Frazier for their second and third fight, though.

Otherwise I agree with you post, though. One have to factor in Frazier's constant bob and weaving when discussing his stamina, not just punch stats.

 

No that's going too far. Marciano used his lower half of his body more, respectably I'd say. He came off the ground to lunge to punch. And Marciano's low crouch was very taxing to his back and is more tiring than you would think when you factor in the rolling he does. Obviously his head movement wasn't as constant, he didn't bob & weave with rhythm.

People talk about Ali not being the same because of his timing not being quite there yet, and it wasn't. Granted Joe beat, but why do you think an even older Ali in 74 had that much more ease with him? Do you think that Joe got affected that much by FOTC or that much more than Ali and was therefore past it. It's valid, but it can be seen as excuse either way just like the timing with Ali for FOTC... which was true.

Marciano had better stamina. I bet Marciano could run for longer than Frazier. Throw punches at the heavyweight bag longer than Frazier, and fight for 20 rounds much better and much fresher than Frazier. Of course, we can hold on to this "bob & weave" and we can factor it to but if Rocky fought that way it would only prove his stamina was superior. Unfortunately he didn't. One thing that you haven't factored though is that Marciano throws bombs for pratically every punch. Joe didn't. I say this would more taxing than the stamina draining from their style differences. Either way, Marciano takes this one.

 

Henry lets look at the other side of things. Prior to the Joe Louis fight, Savold had been knocked out only ONCE in the past TEN YEARS going into the joe louis fight(by huge punching elmer ray)...and during that ten years he took on strict opposition so clearly the man could TAKE A PUNCH.

2ndly....Savold was the BBC heavyweight champion and RING magazine # 2 heavyweight contender when he fought joe louis. Savold was coming off a career win over Bruce Woodcock by 4th round stoppage. Clearly, Savold was a very live fighter going into the Louis match and showed up a trim 190lb. Louis gave savold such a bad beating Lee was never the same again. Lee showed up blubbery and soft for the marciano fight, and unrated. But Lee was the BBC heavyweight champion and had not been off his feet in 5 years heading into the louis match...Louis knocked him out with ONE left hook.


Louis during this time also brutally kayoed nino valdez and pat valentino(checkout the film its brutal) in exhibitions..tore freddie beshores face off, and inflicted huge damage to peak versions of charles and marcianos faces.

Jimmy Bivins also said in May 1951 Ring after there fight "If there is one thing Joe Louis still had, its his power. His skills had faded, but the man could still hit very hard." I dont have the exact quote but Something to that affect

 

Power is generallly the last thing to go, but maybe his speed and timing wasn't the same so he had a harder time landing really clean shots. That could explain his less than impressive KO ratio at the end of his career.

 

:good

 

I respectfully disagree. Frazier fought heavier opponents which should count for something, and he still had a lot of stamina left. Rocky fought only 4 (out of 16) opponents that were ever rated in the top 10 at one time or another, that weighed 200 or more. Frazier fought 14 (out of 19). Quarry twice (198½ & 197½), Bob Foster (188), Eddie Machen (192) & Doug Jones (188), were the only ones under 200.

I know what your going to say, BUT don't you think if a 200+ pounder was lending on you, that would take something out of you during the late rounds?

Here's the weights of their opponents of both men. These are the fighters that were rated when each of them fought them. Rocky's opponents average weight was 193 pounds, Frazier's was 209¾.

Rocky Marciano
1. Roland LaStarza 187
2. Rex Layne 193
3. Joe Louis 213¾
4. Harry Matthews 179
5. Jersey Joe Walcott 196½
6. Jersey Joe Walcott 197¾
7. Roland LaStarza 184¾
8. Ezzard Charles 185½
9. Ezzard Charles 192½
10. Don Cockell 205
11. Archie Moore 188

Joe Frazier
1. Oscar Natalio Bonavena 205
2. George Chuvalo 217¼
3. Manuel Ramos 208
4. Oscar Natalio Bonavena 207
5. Jerry Quarry 198½
6. Jimmy Ellis 201
7. Bob Foster 188
8. Muhammad Ali 215
9. George Foreman 217½
10. Joe Bugner 221
11. Muhammad Ali 212
12. Jerry Quarry 197½
13. Muhammad Ali 224½
14. George Foreman 224