Stamina vs Stamina, Marciano vs Frazier

In all probability Frazier's opponents also had a bigger reach advantage in general than Marciano's, and getting inside that extra reach will mean extra energy spent.

 

True, BUT like I stated before, I am very good friends with several of Savold's old sparring partners, and they all said at the end of his career, he was easy to hit and was nothing but a punching bag. After the Louis bout he went up to 200 pounds, a weight he hadn't hit since 1947, even if he did have something left for Louis, he didn't have anything left when he fought Rocky.

That is called "speed & timing." When you get up their, your punch might stay BUT if your timing is off and your punches don't land as quick, your not going to get many KO's, and that is why Louis only had 3 in his last 10 bouts of his career.

 

Rocky ... I had heard that Rocky had some of the most intense workouts for his era.

 

True, and Rocky never liked to box on the inside anyway. He stated that several times on his TV show "Main Event."

Also, here's an article about just that.

Heavyweight: Toxey Hall: He had a piece of the Rock ... Every Day:

By Pete Ehrmann

Hall was a long time sparring partner of Rocky:

"Most of the sparring partners would get hurt in their rib cage and wore football pads to protect them," said Hall. "But for some reason, that was my toughest part, and it didn't bother me much.

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The one slight exception was when they were preparing for Marciano's defense against England's Don Cockell in San Francisco on May 16, 1955. Before they got into the ring to spar, Hall mentioned that the champion was carrying his right hand low and exposing his chin.

"Why don't you just hit me then?" Marciano challenged.

So, recalled Hall, "I hit him with a left hook, and down he went."

The press was there, and the incident got worldwide coverage. Marciano said nothing at the time, but the next day when they were doing roadwork together, the champion stopped and said, "Toxey, you son of a *****, you knocked me down in front of all those guys."

 

Bonavena was actually coming on a little at the end of his rematch with a tiring Frazier, and Joe's punches by the last round in Manila were described as having been reduced to slaps by one of his own cornermen.

I just reviewed round 15 of Marciano-Charles I, and counted 94 punches by Rocky. A second, more careful evaluation, might reveal over 100 total, including shorter and quicker blows on the inside.

Frazier did do a lot of bobbing and weaving, but Marciano did a lot of energy draining hurling and missing against Charles, yet he actually picked up the pace as the final bell approached, although he no longer had the firepower to force a stoppage.

From what I've read in Rocky's biography, he could have been a champion walker during the 1800s. On at least one occasion, he reportedly took a walk of over 34 miles. Beyond the running he did, the amount of supplementary walking appears to have been staggering.

 

No, not enough of an effect as you suggest. Either way a smaller Quarry had Frazier on the ropes and tons of these bigger guys like Stander and Bugner were other soft hitting for their size or not in good shape. Nobody had Marciano on the ropes like they could with Frazier, even with more weight disparity between him and some of his opponent. Marciano pushed around Louis in the ring. His strength is probably very underrated for his size (His punching power isn't).

Marciano could fight a 20 rounder. Frazier tired noticeably toward the end of 15 rounders.

By the way that quote you have of Marciano sparring partner sounds exactly like the way Marciano talked, so I wouldn't doubt that story.

As for the crowding. You're taking the story too literally. You can crowd any fighter to make them ineffective by literally giving them zero room. Marciano had 67 inch reach and needed some room for those bombs but worked on the inside primarily, especially when the fighters had the much more noticeable reach/height (Louis).

 

You seriously can't use aging Frazier's perfomance in Manilla as proof of less than stellar stamina . If anything is proves the absolute opposite.

So his power had gone after 13 brutal rounds in that hellish cauldron? Big deal. He had passed his physical peak and took part in one of the most fast paced and punishing HW fights of all time in an absolute sauna of a ring. What does that tell you?

 

Marciano was constantly walking when he was fighting. I read that it might have been Al Weil or Charlie Goldman that said he knew Rocky was gonna call it quits when he noticed he wasn't walking anymore.

 

I counted those punches too, and it was over 100 if you count every punch he threw. BUT it is different throwing at a fighter that has seen his better days, then a fighter that is in his prime.

In the 3rd bout with Ali, it was very hot and that played a part in both fighters getting tired and still they threw almost 1600 punches between them.

 

Aging or past his prime? He was 31, while Marciano was 30 against Charles.

I agree, though, not the most appropriate reference. Bonavena, FOTC, or Ali II are though.

 

Joe himself claimed to reporters that his training for Manila (eight weeks) was the longest and hardest of his life.

That the older Ali has been somewhat overlooked for his own ridiculous endurance. Had Futch allowed Frazier out for those final three minutes, Muhammad would have had a third round 15 stoppage on his record. (Don't forget he almost did it again later to Shavers.)

 

Both. He still had one hell of a stamina, but he had passed 30 and was 10 lbs over his best weight.

They are. I don't know the punch stats for these, but he set a high pace in all of them. Ali was very mobile in the rematch and also clinched quite a lot, so Frazier probaly didn't get off nearly as many punches as he could have in that one. Neither guy looked very tired at the end.

 

Good point, but notice how Marciano weight didn't balloon as he aged (At least till he retired ). Another credit to his fitness and stamina, he could have easily been in the 200's as Frazier went from the high 190's to 210's/220's.

I agree.

Another posted made the point of Frazier training at his most of 8 weeks (Or was it 6...) for the III fight. Now I know even Marciano trained months and months for even lesser opponents. Either Marciano trained harder for equal or lesser results to Frazier because of worse genetics (Unlikely) or Marciano is getting slightly discredited in this department (Likely).

 

Rocky stated that he needed room for his power shots and never liked fighting on the inside. Don't get me wrong, I have him in my top 10, BUT head to head, he just doesn't do as well against several of the Greats in the Heavyweight division.

Also, Rocky only went 15 rounds once in his career and Frazier went twice. When Frazier fought Ali the 1st time, here's the official score cards.

The official scorecards for the first Ali vs. Frazier fight "The fight of the Century" read like this:

Arthur Mercante (referee) Frazier 8 rounds, Ali 6 rounds, 1 even
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
A A F F F A A F F A F E F A F

Arthur Aidala Frazier 9 rounds, Ali 6 rounds
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
A A F F F F F F A A F F A A F

Bill Recht Frazier 11 rounds, Ali 4 rounds
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
F A F F A F F F A F F F F A F

I don't see any tiring here.

 

Frazier fought in a lot more wars the Rocky did at that time. 3 bouts with Ali, and 2 with Foreman.