Stamina vs Stamina, Marciano vs Frazier

Rocky truly was a pehonomen. Otherwise it's not uncommon for a HW at that age to put on 5-10 lbs even while being in good shape. Frazier also had some medical problems that could have played a factor.

I have a very hard time thinking anything else than that Frazier trained very hard for Manilla. Anyone saying anything else is probably trying to make excuses for him. But we know that he trained poorly for some fights after FOTC. This is not uncommon after such a seminal victory, though. It's rather Rocky who stands out for his almost superhuman discipline. He was obviously quite amazing in that regard. Almost worth a thread in itself.

 

I belive had Rocky Marciano fought Ali in 71 and beat him, and no longer had the drive (IE like Fraizer did) in training, He would have retire in 72 as he did in the 50's.

Nothing wrong with that, Just saying if Rocky was in Joe's shoes after 71, he might have retire.

 

Yea Ali fights took a toll. LoL at the Foreman fights. Most say he was past it in 1973. Most likely it's just he got lazy living the life of a champ. He was 29 in the first fight.

 

Ah, that's fair. But most of the weight game came while champ. The diabetes wasn't the reason, maybe post 1974 in terms of Joe's weight gain. He was really heavy against Foreman in their second meet.

 

When Frazier came in at 215 against Foreman in 1973 he was obviously out of shape. The 209 he weighed against Ali in the rematch one year later was probably his weight when in shape at that time.

Fair enough.

 

I agree, BUT IMO Rocky would never have beaten Ali.

I agree BUT he was an old 29 when he fought Foreman, as the 1st bout with Ali not only took a toll BUT it also put him into the hospital for a while. His best fighting weight was around 205-210, to Rocky's 185-188, now that's 20 pounds.

 

Never?? Me myself, I see it 50 50 either way. Marciano had the style to pull it off imo.

 

Frazier said his best weight was 204. The Joe Frazier in the hospital is a myth. He was there just for a few days at most for check ups and to rest. He was fine. I agree the first Ali fight took a big toll on him. It wasn't the many wars, it was more the war with Ali. It seems like you're slowly conceding that point unintentionally.

Rocky beats Ali of FOTC.

Your so weight conscious. How does Foreman fare against Lewis, Bowe, etc? Does 15 pounds really matter that much when A> That fighter is used to fighting bigger men and B> That fighter hits harder.

Holyfield beating a good outside and inside fighter and slugging while boxing with that bigger men showed weight isn't everything and Holyfield doesn't even have big power. But he beat Bowe who outweighed him by 30 pounds. He was old and competeted (Official a Draw) with Lewis that outweighed him by 30 pounds. How does someone with a punch and boxing skills like Liston fare against the super heavyweights? Ultimately, you over-factor weight advantage especially since Marciano hit harder than Frazier. But of course, you actually think Frazier had superior stamina... so with your mindset I'd think Frazier would win too.

Excellent post.

 

There very few boxing historians and experts that would pick Rocky over Ali. Rocky would only have a punchers chance of beating him and Ali had one of the best, if not the best heavyweight chin ever. Ali took the best shots of Foreman, Frazier, Liston, Shavers, Mac Foster and others. The only time Rocky would have beaten Ali is when he was way past his prime. At their best, Ali wins going away.

I have asked this question to many Historians over the years, and almost all say the same thing.

I Have 46 boxing Historian or Expert rating and here's what they came out with:

1. Ali 26 Louis 13 Dempsey 2 Marciano 2 (Duva & Certo) Tyson, Jeffries & Johnson 1
2. Ali 9 Louis 22 Marciano 3
3. Ali 5 Louis 3 Marciano 5
4. Ali 3 Louis 4 Marciano 1
5. Ali 2 Louis 0 Marciano 6
6. Ali 0 Louis 4 Marciano 6
7. Ali 0 Louis 0 Marciano 6
8. Ali 0 Louis 0 Marciano 3
9. Ali 1 Louis 0 Marciano 4
10. Ali 0 Louis 0 Marciano 1
Not Rated - Marciano 3

Also a few of the ratings is for all the weight classes, that's why Rocky comes up a little short of 46 votes.

OTHER OPINIONS ON GREATEST HEAVYWEIGHT: Some of these are counted in my totals BUT some aren't because I don't have their full Top 10.
INTERNATIONAL BOXING RESEARCH ORGANIZATION (IBRO): Joe Louis (USA)
JIM AMATO (Amato Boxing): Muhammad Ali (USA)
TRACY CALLIS (Historian, Great Fighters of the Past): Jim Jeffries (USA)
DAN CUOCO (Historian, Director of IBRO): Joe Louis (USA)
BARRY DESKINS (Historian, Cyber Boxing Zone and BoxRec): Muhammad Ali (USA)
STEPHEN GORDON (Cyber Boxing Zone): Muhammad Ali (USA)
MIKE HUNNICUT (Historian, Writer, Film Collector): Jack Dempsey (USA)
ERIC JORGENSEN (Historian): Muhammad Ali (USA)
RON LIPTON (Historian, Former Fighter and Referee): Joe Louis (USA)
CURTIS NARIMATSU (Writer and Historian): Muhammad Ali (USA)

 

But NEVER???

If Rocky fought Ali 100 times, with each getting regrenation at the end of each bout, Marciano will have his fair share of victorys.

 

Marciano beats FOTC Ali. Little doubt in my mind.

In a series of 3, Ali takes 2. I'm 50-60/50-40 on this.

Prime v Prime in a 12 round fight I think Ali would win and I'm very confident of this.

Prime v Prime in a 15 round fight I think Ali would win and I'm about 60/40 confident on that.

My 2 cents...

 

I am talking about prime for prime, there is no way Rocky wins. You know they wouldn't fight 100 times, lets get real. The most would be 2 (3 if Rocky won one, which a doubt very much), and Ali would have taken both of them.

I just can't see Rocky beating Ali. He never fought anyone that was rated and in their prime with Ali's speed, height, reach, jab, combination punches, etc.

 

Most experts would disagree with you on that.