Stamina vs Stamina, Marciano vs Frazier

Angelo Dundee
1- Muhammad Ali. (Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano, Sonny Liston, George Foreman, Larry Holmes, Joe Frazier, Jack Demspey, Max Schmelling and Jim Braddock).

"I don't want to sound biased, but the greatest heavyweight of all time was Ali. There's a reason there. See... before Ali, none of the fighters talked. The manager, trainer, cousin... everyone else talked but the fighter, because they did their talking in the ring. When Ali came around, the fans got to where they wanted to hear from the star. Now when you have star quality, that's the guy who should be heard. Liston belongs in the top ten too because the only guy who could lick him was Ali. Now, I'm going to sound biased again because I worked with him when he came back to boxing... but Foreman is one of the greats too. When he came back, he was a completely changed guy when he won the championship. I don't know if it was the religion or being out of boxing for such a long time. When he first started, he was a tough guy. Then he became a gentle man. I think he got to meet people and he liked what he saw. Holmes and Frazier. I have to put them in there also. Dempsey was Mr. Excitement. And, oddly enough.... Schmelling. He showed people how to hit Louis with a right hand. Then of course, Braddock belongs in there too. So.... I guess I am biased (Laughs)." (Dundee was coach and advisor to movie actor Russell Crowe who portrayed Braddock in the film Cinderella Man )

 

Walcott and Charles gave Rocky problems because they were great fighters. They would have given about ANYONE problems.

Marciano did dig deep and beat em both. They were great fights still talk about today. Think the Marciano fights ruin Charles, Marciano did give Charles a bad beating in the first fight. A lesser man may have went down for the ten count, but Charles fought on getting more of a beating as the rounds went by.

Not just head to head I rank Rocky over the 2 he beat. He did something Charles or Walcott didnt do, and that was cleaning out his own era, and only few greats relly did that.

Ali did it, Louis did it, I suppose in a way Jack Johnson did it, pre title, than getting Jeff,
And Lewis.

Thats about it.

 

Thanks man. Dundee has a good list. Don't see how he has Liston ahead of Frazier. I guess to boost Ali's credentials.

I actually did a google search and found this posted on another forum. A lot of people make picks. Fred Roach picks James Toney for his 10th spot .

http://www.***********.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50472

 

If talking gets on a top rank, than Jack Johnson, Harry Greb, Archie Moore, and John L Sullivan should be on any ones list lol. Jim Corbett can talk a mean game also.

 

I agree that both Walcott and Charles were Great in their day BUT at the time when they fought Rocky, they were not as good as they once were. Just look at their records.

In 1952, Charles lost to Walcott (close decision) and Rex Layne. In 1953 he lost to Nino Valdez and Harold Johnson (fairly close). He really wasn't as good after he was knocked cold by Walcott in 1951. Before that loss to Walcott, he only lost 1 bout since 1943 and that was a very close decision to Elmer Ray.

Charles "apparently won handily. . . Ray was the aggressor most of the way, but Charles was the faster, the better boxer, and the sharper hitter." (The Ring, October 1947, page 42).

"Elmer (Violent) Ray, who is an old alligator wrestler out of Florida, was around today hollering for a shot at Joe Louis' heavyweight championship. He started putting up the holler immediately after coming in with a split 10 round decision last night in MSG over Ezzard Charles, a Cincinnati light heavyweight. Ray barely managed to get the nod of two of the officials, after putting up a hot rush down the stretch, particualarly in the 7th and 9th when he forced Ezzard to grab and hold. The third official voted for Charles." -Associated Press

• Unofficial AP scorecard - 5-4-1 Charles

Charles was 41-1 (24 KO) during that time. He was 14-5 (9 KO) after that streak, leading up to his 1st bout with Rocky.

I went over Walcott's record before, so I won't bore you with it again.

As far as Rocky cleaning out the division, actually the top contenders cleaned themselves out. Valdez was rated #1 for 2 years, and before he got a shot at Rocky, he lost to Moore. BUT besides that, Rocky did beat the best of that time.

When Ali was Champion, he fought the #1 contender no matter who it was. In fact he actually asked the fans in one of the Boxing Magazines, who they wanted him to fight. They voted for Ernie Terrell.

 

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"It's difficult to pick whose 1-2-3 because there were so many greats. Greats like Johnson. He did more than just fight. He paved the way for black fighters like Ali and Patterson. He broke the barriers and didn't care what people thought. He had guts! He was his own man.... AND he was knocking guys out. But Ali.... he brought boxing up another notch. He really turned things up and brought a lot of money into the sport. Patterson was another. He was the first guy to earn a million dollar purse. And, Holmes. He was a real, real good fighter also. But he never got what was due to him because he lived in the shadow of Ali. Then there is Louis. He's #1 in my book. The greatest of the greats."

Gil Clancy
1- Joe Louis, 2- Rocky Marciano, 3- Muhammad Ali. (Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, Jack Johnson, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Larry Holmes and Mike Tyson).

"Without a doubt, the three greatest of all time are Louis, Marciano and Ali. After them, it's very hard to analyze something like that because there are so many heavyweights that brought different things to the sport. Johnson was a pioneer and a good fighter. In the 70's you had Ali, Frazier and Formen. They were kings. And, I hate to say it, but Tyson belongs up there too. He had so much speed and power. No one could beat him in his prime. No one could destroy Tyson, but he ended up destroying himself. He could have been the greatest heavyweight fighter of all time."

Kevin Rooney
1- Joe Louis, 2- Rocky Marciano, 3- Muhammad Ali, 4- Mike Tyson, 5- George Foreman, 6- Floyd Patterson, 7- Joe Frazier, 8- Jack Dempsey, 9- Evander Holyfield, 10- Jack Johnson.

"Louis had the most title defenses and was the longest reigning heavyweight champ ever. So, he's number one on my list. Marciano was undefeated. Then you had Ali who won the title three times. Frazier belongs up there too because he knocked Ali on his backside and beat him under all that pressure in their first fight. Foreman was a killer, even though Ali took him to school. But he came back and became the oldest heavyweight champ ever! Holyfield gets my ranking also. He was a warrior.... and a four-time heavyweight champ too, after everyone kept telling him to quit. Then there's the great Jack Johnson.... the first African American to win the heavyweight title. That was a tremendous feat in itself - for him to get the opportunity to fight for the title in that era. He was 'the man' back in the early 1900's. I put Patterson and Tyson on my list too because they were the youngest heavyweight champs ever. In fact, Tyson could have been the greatest heavyweight in history. He had faster hands than Ali and he punched harder. People say that Tyson would have folded under the mental pressure of Ali. But I know that Tyson would've been a stone cold killer against him. Ali would not have been able to rattle Tyson. But, I'm talking about the Tyson that I trained back in the 80's.... who with me was 35-0 with 31 knockouts.... who used the D'Amato style and trained hard. THAT Mike Tyson."

Freddie Roach
1- Joe Louis, 2 Muhammad Ali, 3- Larry Holmes, 4- Joe Frazier, 5- Evander Holyfield, 6- Jack Johnson, 7- Rocky Marciano, 8- Mike Tyson, 9- George Foreman, 10- James Toney.

"Louis was the best text book fighter.... ever. He was a classic boxer! Then, Ali was more of an athlete. He had a lot of natural ability. Johnson, well he was a fighter that was ahead of his time. He was a little unorthodox when compared to today's fighters, but he was the first black man to break through and win the heavyweight championship. So he had to be a very talented guy to do that... especially in that era. Tyson? Early in his career, he was unbeatable. He feared no one and was always in great shape. Great speed and a great puncher. But Toney, he has the most natural ability and is the most gifted fighter I've ever seen. He's a throwback from the old timers. As a middleweight, he was a good fighter. But as a heavyweight, his punch came with him and he's better now than I think he ever was. He fights more consistently and fights every round. I've never seen a fighter that is so cool in the ring. Nothing bothers him!"

Miguel Diaz
1- Muhammad Ali, 2- Mike Tyson. (Jerry Quarry, Ron Lyle, Riddick Bowe, Larry Holmes, Evander Holyfield, Ken Norton, George Foreman and Lennox Lewis).

"For me there are only 2 great heavyweights and I have them in a dead heat. Ali and Tyson. Unfortunately, we didn't get to see the best years of Ali because he was suspended for 3 ½ years. He had so much style and had a fantastic chin too. On the other hand, Tyson was so great until D'Amato and (Jimmy) Jacobs passed away. Sadly, after that, Tyson lost control fo his life and became what he became. But to me he was a great, great champ. The speed on his punches... not the speed of how the threw them, I'm talking about the 'speed' in which the brain tells the muscle to 'throw' - was unbelievable. I never saw Louis fight live and I really don't know too much about the heavyweights from the 20's and 30's. Very few people are alive today who can say they did. So I can only speak about what I know since my time in boxing from 1965. Quarry was so brave. Incredibly brave. Lyle was great. And Holmes! He had such a great jab... a good chin and was a great all around fighter. Kenny Norton was a tough fighter too. In fact, the best heavyweight fight I ever saw... live, was Norton-Holmes in 1978 when Holmes won the title. What a fight!"

 

And in Rocky's 6 title defenses he fought the number 1 guy 5 times. Rocky did clean out his era, Sure he may have miss Valez, but Moore made sure of that by knocking him off for good.

Think Charles was robbed vs Johnson. Charles look impresive in knocking out Wallace and Satterfiled. May not be 1940's Charles, but he was still a top fighter.

 

Manny Steward
1- Muhammad Ali, 2- Joe Louis, 3- Larry Holmes, 4- George Foreman, 5- Lennox Lewis, 6- Gene Tunney, 7- Jack Johnson, 8- Rocky Marciano, 9- Sonny Liston, 10- Mike Tyson.

"If you ask me who is the greatest boxer and who could have beaten all of the champions, I'd say Ali. He fought all over the world and in anyone's home town.... left hander or right hander. He had everything! But there is only one champion, and even Ali will tell you.... it's Joe Louis. He was champion for 11 years.... with 25 defenses! He went into the military and did everything he was supposed to do. He opened the door for black people and brought the whole world together. He never got into a scandal and epitomized the word 'champion.' Foreman and Holmes are much better than people give credit to. Tunney was the first guy of the modern boxing era. In fact, his style is the style that Ali picked up from. And, Marciano was phenomenal! He was 188 pounds, had short arms, was a clumsy fighter and he cut easily. And he STILL overcame and knocked out everyone easily. Sonny Liston was awesome. But he did his best fighting before he won the title. I'd have to put Tyson in there too. What was so amazing about him was he was such a small guy in an era of tall fighters... just like Marciano was. Mike was 220 but he was fighting guys 240-250. But he also fought guys who were scared to death of him. When he faced a guy who wasn't afraid, he had problems like he did with Mitch Green, Tony Tucker, Bonecrusher Smith and Quick Tillis. Mike WAS in his prime when he fought them and they weren't legendary names either... they just weren't afraid of him. The type of style that Mike had isn't meant for guys after 30 years old anyway. That 'aggressive-don't think about nothing-just destruct and destroy,' style. But I think Mike's career was prolonged by being incarcerated off and on. Mike Tyson had such a profound impact on boxing, unlike anyone I've ever known.... other than Joe Louis and Ali. That's why I pick him. Mike changed everything. He created so much excitement. You didn't care who he fought! You just wanted to see him fight. All of the sudden, everyone wanted to wear black, when the choice of champions was always white. Kids in the gym were trying to do the Tyson bob-n-weave.

"Another fighter who I'd say is Johnson. He made an impact as well. He was an unbelievable man with a lot of balls. But I put him at #7 because, actually.... his accomplishments in the ring were very limited. He was mainly known for his hatred of the white establishment. But as for his fights in the ring.... he fights a 36 year old man (Bob Fitzsimmons) who came out of retirement, who had no business in the ring at all.... just so he could fight for the white race. When Johnson won the heavyweight title, he fought a 5'7", little bitty man (Tommy Burns) who weighed only 168 pounds. Then, there was such hype when he fought Jim Jeffries, but Jeffries was another one who shouldn't have been in the ring. He hadn't fought in 6 years and had to lose 100 pounds for their fight. And, Johnson knocks out (Stanley) Ketchel.... who was a middleweight - who at one point knocked Johnson down in their fight! Then he gets knocked out by Jess Willard, then says he took a dive. So, if you look at his history, that's really what's he's known for. And, he refused to fight Sam Langford a second time because he gave Johnson such a hard time a couple of years before he won the title. And Langford was only 5'8"! Johnson was 6'1"! In fact, Johnson refused to fight any black fighters and he did more damage to the black race than anyone. He did so much damage that they wouldn't even PERMIT a black man to fight for the title.... for years! So, many other black fighters could have been world champions, after Johnson, but they weren't allowed. He didn't care what he did for black people. He would tell you point blank: 'I'm not obsessed with trying to be a black patriot... I'm not trying to open doors for anyone else... I just look out for the pleasures of Jack Johnson!' When he beat Jess Willard, and black people were getting killed all over the country because they celebrated his win... he didn't care. Johnson's main object and enjoyment was creating pain and misery for the white establishment. But, he was a smart businessman too. He always had money. He was protected, to a certain degree, and was a big figure in the underground world of gamblers and prostitutes. That's why he was able to operate in the white world. He had white people in power that he controlled. He was making money on the side with his brothels and was able to buy his way out of things.

"Now, people who don't know any better, are trying to get Congress to pardon Johnson for violating the Mann Act (transporting a woman across state line for immoral purposes). But he was not innocent of that. No one set him up. He did it! He knew the girl. He was a pimp in Chicago and that's how he made most of his money. He hardly made any money from fighting. There was one instance where Johnson got mad at someone in town because they wouldn't let him into a movie theater because he was black. So, he went and withdrew $25,000 out of his bank account. He took his wife and 4 of his hookers and blew the money on a weekend trip just to party. You know how much $25,000 was back then? Just for a weekend of fun? He did that just to show off.

"Then, Joe Louis came along. He had a light complexion and was specially groomed to be acceptable. They taught him never to gloat over an opponent... to be humble and respectful, and to be the complete opposite of Jack Johnson. So, Louis did more for the black race than any man in history. He was not only a fighter, he opened the door for race relationships. He was the one who made it easier for other generations that came along. When Louis fought Schmelling for a second time, there was never a time in history where the whole world was all united around the radio. It was more than just a fight between two men, in a roped off area in New York. It was a fight against a big movement that was taking over the whole world. It was a fight between good and evil.... and Joe represented good. So when Joe knocked out Schmelling, no longer were the people in America black or white. They were Americans. Joe Louis, fought for the dignity and the freedom of the free world. That night - especially with the drama of having been knocked out by Schmelling... with the whole world on pins and needles - was like a night that the earth stood still. There was so much pressure on his shoulders. He knocked Schmelling out so devastatingly that the United States and the whole free world were shouting in the streets. That's when Louis became the biggest hero.... ever. No athlete or any political figure could have done what Louis did that night. He went beyond being a boxer. After that, no one looked so much at black and white anymore. And THAT's what a heavyweight champ is all about.

 

Very good to see some opinions of such men as these. If not the fighters themselves they were very close to them. So I agree with Pete the more opinions the better.

And, hhascup, I'm sure you were just about ready to complete that list of a few more opinions from trainers and such. But just in case I will complete the list you started with a few more names you left off. Perhaps you could find the comments of Duva and Certo since they were included in the list you were reporting. It would be interesting to see what they thought in more detail. Don't you agree?

Here it is as quoted from Fightnews.

"Fightnews spoke to some of the top 10 'old school' trainers (with 30 plus years of experience in the sport), asking for their picks of the top 10 greatest heavyweight fighters of all time. They are trainers who were active in the glory days of boxing and remember just what fighters were made of and what the heavyweight division was all about.

Lou Duva
1- Rocky Marciano. (Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis, Billy Conn, Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles, Sonny Liston, Ernie Shavers, Jim Braddock and Max Baer. Special mention: Max Schmelling and 'Jersey' Joe Walcott)

Jimmy Glenn
1- Joe Louis. (Jack Johnson, Muhammad Ali, Rocky Marciano, 'Jersery' Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Larry Holmes, Sonny Liston, Jack Dempsey and Floyd Patterson).

Al Certo
1- Rocky Marciano, 2- Joe Louis, 3- 'Jersey' Joe Walcott. (Muhammad Ali, Roland LaStarza, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, Jim Braddock, Max Baer and Max Schmelling. Special mention: Billy Conn).

Angelo Dundee
1- Muhammad Ali. (Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano, Sonny Liston, George Foreman, Larry Holmes, Joe Frazier, Jack Demspey, Max Schmelling and Jim Braddock).

Gil Clancy
1- Joe Louis, 2- Rocky Marciano, 3- Muhammad Ali. (Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, Jack Johnson, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Larry Holmes and Mike Tyson).

Buddy McGirt
1- Muhammad Ali. (Joe Louis, Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, 'Jersey' Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Mike Tyson, Larry Holmes, Jack Johnson and Evander Holyfield).

Kevin Rooney
1- Joe Louis, 2- Rocky Marciano, 3- Muhammad Ali, 4- Mike Tyson, 5- George Foreman, 6- Floyd Patterson, 7- Joe Frazier, 8- Jack Dempsey, 9- Evander Holyfield, 10- Jack Johnson.

Freddie Roach
1- Joe Louis, 2 Muhammad Ali, 3- Larry Holmes, 4- Joe Frazier, 5- Evander Holyfield, 6- Jack Johnson, 7- Rocky Marciano, 8- Mike Tyson, 9- George Foreman, 10- James Toney.

Miguel Diaz
1- Muhammad Ali, 2- Mike Tyson. (Jerry Quarry, Ron Lyle, Riddick Bowe, Larry Holmes, Evander Holyfield, Ken Norton, George Foreman and Lennox Lewis).

Manny Steward
1- Muhammad Ali, 2- Joe Louis, 3- Larry Holmes, 4- George Foreman, 5- Lennox Lewis, 6- Gene Tunney, 7- Jack Johnson, 8- Rocky Marciano, 9- Sonny Liston, 10- Mike Tyson.

 

Wasn't the Layne one somewhat controversial? He beat him in the rematch, though. I think Valdez might have been a style thing.

 

Hey, I did a google search and actually found what he was posting from. Here's what Duvo said.


Lou Duva
1- Rocky Marciano. (Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis, Billy Conn, Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles, Sonny Liston, Ernie Shavers, Jim Braddock and Max Baer. Special mention: Max Schmelling and 'Jersey' Joe Walcott)

"To me, the best heavyweight of all time is Marciano. No one ever beat him! Boxing was his life. There were so many great fighters that it's hard to rank these guys from 1 to 10. Aside from all his faults, I gotta add Liston. He was a good puncher and a good fighter. But one of the hardest punchers was Shavers! He could knock you dead with one punch! Then there's Braddock. A real tough guy with lots of heart. He worked 12 hours a day in a factory, then would go to the gym at night to train. Fighters back then didn't have the luxury of investors! They had to work to earn a living! And, in the old days, fighters knew what they were doing. They knew what they were there for and they got the job done. Also, back in the 30's and 40's, there were only 8 weight divisions. At the time, a light heavyweight was 175 pounds, but he stepped up to fight heavyweights. A good example of that were guys like Conn, Moore and Charles. But you haven't got that today! Today's light heavyweight fighters couldn't carry their (Conn, Moore, Charles) gym bags!"

Here's Al Certo

Al Certo
1- Rocky Marciano, 2- Joe Louis, 3- 'Jersey' Joe Walcott. (Muhammad Ali, Roland LaStarza, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, Jim Braddock, Max Baer and Max Schmelling. Special mention: Billy Conn).

"Marciano and Louis were great, and they were classy guys too. And, Walcott was my idol. So they're at the top of my list. But I don't want to classify any of these fighters over the others because they were all tremendous. I gotta stick Conn in there too. Even though he was a light heavyweight, he moved up to heavy and fought Louis. He had Louis beat up until the 13th round. I'll put LaStarza up there too. He was a tough S.O.B. I'll bet none of the other trainers mention him! (Laughs) In those years, guys never backed away from a fight and they would drop you on your ass. But fighters nowadays? You know what the guys on my list would've done to these modern days fighters? Forget about it! I know what the guys in my era were capable of, and let me tell you... it'd be no competition what so ever! By the way, who'd Angie (Dundee) pick? I'll bet that ole bugger's got Ali in the number #1 spot!"

 

I see this as a very close one, hard to call with certainity. Rocky obviously threw more punches, but Frazier had a busier upperbody movement and fought bigger guys in general. This I feel satisfied of, but what it gives for result is harder to say.

If I had to choose someone here it would be Rocky, though. If you have two superbly conditioned athletes, the smart money is most often on the one who's 20 lbs lighter. If it differs, it doesn't differ much, though.

 

God, some of those lists are positively bizarre. James Toney? Billy Conn? Braddock?

 

Thing with Buddy is like everyone else he has his own opinion and his own agenda..Buddy said Walcott was on of his favorites but Buddy likes a tecnique fighter. Marciano had plently of tecnique but his biggest strengths were his stamina, power,chin and determination. Buddy had a nice run with Tarver/Jones and Gatti but he has not won a big one in a while. Marvin Hagler on the other hand a man that has been in the ring also Picks Marciano and Ali as the 2 greatest. The thing people do not notice about Marciano is that although he took a good punch he made you miss a lot of punches, block many in a exchange and Made you throw. His fight with Moore is a good example. As far as Ali, I can see a series with Marciano being very competitive and WHO really knows how that would develope but to say Marciano could never win shows a strong feeling on your part but it is only an opinion. Max Kellerman is another stat guy but is 50 % correct is he is lucky. Teedy Altas different approach but also not often correct. Opinions are like assholes everybody has them. Ali said that Marciano would be his hardest fight and he said out of Dempsey,Frazier,Foreman,Liston,Norton and Johnson....Ali was being honest and I think he knew something.

 

I'll throw my hat into the ring and say that Marciano would be tough for Ali. I've always thought so.