Stanley Ketchel v.s. Cleveland Williams

Which one of Williams wins impressed you. He was one of the biggest muscled guys of the time but I think he made Liston look good. Do you rate him above a Mac Foster or a Ron Lyle or below.

I think his opposition was weak and other than Terrel who he beat and lost to he was not so impressive with his wins. He went the distance with Keene Simmons, who Marciano had KO'd the year before...I think sometimes people get confused with size and muscle and equate it to power

Bruno was so stiff and with out rhythm he made the Klitschko's look like Jazz Masters.

Bruno with his muscles was an impressive victim, an old trainer told me one time, you can build up a body but there is nothing to strengthen the chin and I think we have seen that with all of the giants of the past, Willard,Carnera, Lewis,Vlad,Cooney,Wills,

I know people who put on 50 lbs of muscle gain and more but to compete for 15 rds at a torrent pace, I think a lot of these giants would have to slim down. Gee a lot of them can not fight more than 8 rds.

Even the best conditioned Heavyweights of the last 2 decades Lewis and Tyson, never got off the floor to win and Lewis never KO'd a man after the 8th rd. Tyson only once stopped a man after 8 ( Trail-horse Jose Ribalta tko)

I think if they brought back 15 rds, we would see a different breed of Heavyweights, Not as fat and far more fit and the 15 rd limit may eliminate the short in stamina

By the way...Ketchel does not have a chance with Louis,Marciano,Dempsey,Tunney,Tyson, or Williams or Lyle or Foster but he was still a great middleweight along with Hagler and Monzon whose chances are just as slim...These men were perfect at 160

 

I dont know about that.
Tony Tubbs, Tim Witherspoon and Greg Page were three of the men to take part in some of the last 15-round heavyweight fights.

 

Bummy,

In fairness to Williams...many of the better contenders of the day would not fight him due to fear. Liston talked about this in his book.


A couple notable wins by Cleveland Williams was Alonzo Johnson..who had gone the distance with every champ/top contender up to that point. Williams blasted him in one. Also Billy Daniels was a tall polished boxer who was coming off a nice string of wins at the time. Also his wins over Wayne Bethea(top 10), Alex Miteff(top 10), John Holman, Young Jack Johnson are nothing to scoff at. His knockout over Ernie Terrell is a very big win. He also drew with top contender machen in a fight some thought williams edged.


Just imagine if Williams has gotten a shot at patterson? maybe it would have been like lison-patterson all over again.

 

Gosh..if you were gonna make a point about a "big talented" fighter beating Marciano... I certainly wouldnt bring up ray mercer .


Speaking of families last dollar...you think if Mercer fought marciano, he would try to bribe rocky into throwing the fight while rocky was pummeling him? I bet mercer would be willing to cough up everyone of his last family's dollars. ask jesse fergusson.

 

"In a way Williams is tougher to fight than Liston because he has the speed the other doesn't have. You can't walk around Cleveland like you can Liston." -Eddie Machen

 

They were horrible Lean- Fests even I a devout boxing fan had to gag through those matches. They were horific, no action lean fests. These fighter almost ruined heavyweight boxing.

A fit fighter like Tyson showed you where Tubbs belonged and would have done the same to Witherspoon, another wasted talent, These men were not fit. Page could be very good in one fight and flatten out for the next...poor conditioned Heavyweights = ALL

 

I think the difference between Williams and Lyle was Williams was faster and better able to deal with boxers. Lyle could not deal with Jimmy Young. Williams on the otherhand had strong showings against defensive master boxers like Machen, and against tall rangy ackward boxers like Terrell. When you find a big powerful slugger who not only can knock ur head off, but outpoint you as well...your in for a troublesome night.

 

Good points, I focus a bit on his losses and by the time he fought Ali he was shot up and was like an El-Cid, He would certainly have a punchers chance vs Patterson if he could deal with that speed....Where do you rate Williams next to fighters of the 70's like Ron Lyle,Mac Foster,etc.

Williams had the most impressive LOOK next to Liston to instill fear in an opponent, right up there next to Tyson but I think Sonny had the best look, he looked solid.

I do not mean to undermine him just feel he may be overrated and I remember him for his losses

 

I respect your opinion, I will revisit Big Cat

 

First of all the size difference is greater for Ketchel than it is for Marciano. 50Lbs. for Ketchel (who was smaller than Marciano) is a bigger deal than 55Lbs. for Marciano.

Bruno was a big strong man. Bruno had a decent jab most of the time but he was slow of hand and foot. He was chinny and had bad stamina. He did have heart though.

A prime Bruno has about 50-55Lbs. on Rocky and is about 4" taller. Reach isn't really an issue because it was never Rocky's game plan to stay on the outside and outjab somebody... the longer the arms the better for Marciano.

Marciano faced plenty of guys more skilled than Bruno... Louis, Walcott x2, Charles x2, and Moore. He went 6-0 (5) vs. these Hall of Famers. Yes, Louis was well past prime and Charles was slightly past prime but Walcott and Moore were as good as ever IMO. Even the versions of Louis and Charles that Marciano faced were more skilled than a prime Bruno. Bruno was taller, bigger, and stronger though.

Marciano would outwork Bruno and win by decision. A late round KO sn't out of the question though.

As for Ketchel? It's hard to say... he died at age 24. At 5'9" and 160bs. it's hard to imagine him doing well at HW. He beat some great fighters but he was also stopped by one of them... the 5'9" 160Lb. Billy Papke stopped him in 12. Ketchel won a decision over Papke and he stopped him in 11.

6'3" 215Lb. Cleveland Williams? It could go either way. I think Williams gets overrated around here.

 

H.E grant doesn't listen to me when i tell him this. Maybe he will listen to you.

 

I never mentioned Williams physique, so I don't know why you have gone off on a tangent here.
Simmons was stopped on his feet against Marciano, never having been down, Marciano was himself in danger of being tkod in this fight because of a badly damaged left eye, according to Sharkey Bonnano the referee. Nine months previously Simmons went the distance with Nino Valdes he had a good chin.Simmons was a tough experienced fighter, Williams was in his 10th pro fight.

 

Williams was in his 27 pro fight for Keene Simmons and Simmons was a survivor and did also go the distance with Nino Valdes and Lastarza but Marciano stopped him in 8

I never said you mentioned his physique, no tangent from me...I like you Mcvey...we cool :good

 

You are correct I missed the second page of Williams resume
Marciano did stop Simmons but he didnt floor him.
I think Williams would have had a 50% chance against Patterson, had he got the chance. His resume looks a little thin ,but there were not lots of boxers queueing up to take on a big hitting fast handed 6'3'' 212lbs guy, certainly D'Amato would not take the chance with Floyd against him, drawing with Machen showed Williams could compete with skilled boxers. I originally made my reply as a rebuttal to Seamus asserting that Williams was chinny and kod by just about every 60,s heavy.Seamus was negative in his comments ,but then he allways is. I have yet to read a positive one by him.:good

 

Yes he certainly had a 50-50 chance vs Patterson, Suzie-Q brought up some good points as well as yourself. I will revisit Big Cat