Stanley Ketchel vs Georges Carpentier

Tunney and Loughran two great boxers both thought Carpentier was a skilled boxer.

 

Tunney had to find excuse for his not very impressive performance against Carpentier (whom he ought to have finished much quicker). And Loughran didn't fight him, he'd look much better than Tunney in such fight. Anyway, the point is, I've seen enough footage and I've read some fight reports, both of which clearly show that Carpentier was a poor boxer, more hype than real talent and skill.

 

Carpentier would give Ketchel lapses in his assault with speed and smart manoeuvres that lead to his pet right, but Ketchel, in a long fight, will prove too strong, dirty and relentless for Carpentier to contain and he'll get smashed to the floor later on.

It'd be a superb fight, very fast paced. Carpentier was one of the real 'fancy's' of the day, but he had the heart of a lion.

 

Loughran fought Carpentier on Jun 17 1926 in the Philadelphia Stadium.This is what he said about Carpentier,"Carpentier was fast,he could punch with both hands,he was a knockout puncher,had a terrific left hook.He had good footwork,he had speed,and he knew every angle of the ring.He knew how toblock them,he knew how to use good footwork.He was well trained,he was well conditioned,but at the time I fought him I would say he must have een around 34,or 35.I mean he was over the hill.In the mean time he was still a dangerous puncher.he hit me with a left hook in the 3rd caught me on the cheek bone.If he'd hit me on the chin,I'd been out for a week,the right side of my face came out like that.But then what I didnt do to him Jeez.In the 7th I dropped him right on his face.he was still trying to get that left hook across,and I was suckering him into it.But he got up,and when he got up ,my hand was done for.That was why I had so much respect for him,because of his age.But his knowledge and his courage, and his capabilities were so extraordinary at that time." This is from a taped interview in 1972 at the New York Athletic Club. May I just say Loughran wasn' allways so fullsome with his praise ,he didnt think much of Young Stribling for example ,nor Jack Delaney,so maybe there is a lot of substance in what he said?

 

Didn't remember that, but it was indeed at the end of Carpentier's career. 1972 is way too much later to evaluate something clearly, Carpentier had already got a lot of hype by that point too. I'm basing my opinion on footage of younger Carpentier than when Loughran fought him, and on contemporary reports. His manager had a lot to do with his "success", dirty tricks and cheating surrounded his fights.

 

While Carp was certainly hyped, he did have an impresive record that cant be overlooked.

 

On paper he has some good wins, but those who have either read about them or seen on film, know the circumstances are not that impressive. But this has already been discussed a little while ago. His manager was pathetic in his attempts to get a win in every fight no matter what, and Carpentier supported this attitude.

 

Francois Duchamps , Carpentiers manager pulled Georges out of a couple of fights when he was a teenager and the Siki fight was allmost certainly a fix ,do you know of any others?

 

He was matched up carefully against European boxers, but almost every time he met an American boxer he got his ass kicked even by second-raters.

The Gunboat Smith was a disgrace (despite what Corri claims in his book, as he was the referee of that fight, other accounts contradict his BS claim), Carpentier was weakening fast by the 5th round and would have lost the fight.

The fight with Kid Lewis, even Lord Lonsdale couldn't keep quiet, writing an open letter to the press. Carpentier butted Lewis no less than four times, he landed low blows, he was resposible for holding in the clinches, yet the referee Joe Palmer gave a warning to Lewis instead, which amazed Lewis and made him lose attention for a moment. It was an accidental foul blow which knocked him out, but the referee still gave the fight to the fouler.

The Siki fight, although the rumours were spread before the fight that it was a fake, but Carpentier himself denied it, and an investigation concluded that the fight was going to be honest, no fake. Early in the fight, Carpentier at times was paying more attention to the film operators than to his opponent, missing some punches by a foot. When Siki (who was a bad boxer, with little skills) knocks him down, he was quickly fading after that, although he attempted to finish Siki, but when he couldn't do it, he was broken mentally (despite the heart he had shown in some other fights while taking a terrible beating), he deliberately tried to headbutt Siki many times in the 5th round. Near the end of the 5th round Carpentier slips, and Siki helps him up, but instead of thanking him, the French lands a left swing to the jaw. When he was knocked out, Descamps attempted to rule it a foul (you can see him on the film, pointing to the opposite corner, at Siki, and gesturing something to the referee), and it was originally announced that Siki was disqualified, Carpentier the winner. Only an hour or so later, after a meeting of the judges that the decision was reversed, and Siki was declared the victor, and rightfully so.
On a side note, if somebody has the ESPN film of Carpentier's fight against Marcell Nilles, you see a fine example how the hype had done its job, with the commentator praising Carpentier for non-existing things. He missed a jab, 'great jab from Carpentier', he gets hit by several hooks, 'great defense', he's moving away from his opponent without countering, 'very good defensive fighter, he scores well moving backwards', he's standing flat-footed with Nilles not having any troubles whatsoever finding him, 'uses his footwork to bamboozle his opponent', getting hammered to the ribs in the clinch without hitting back, 'you can see greath strength by Carpentier when he's in close', taking a beating in the corner, 'picking his opponent apart with his left jab', staggered by a right hand, 'doing well when's he's cornered', Nilles following him slowly across the ring, 'Nilles looks embarassing', Carpentier missing several punches in a row immediately, and getting clocked with a counter to the jaw - silence from the commentator, misses a right swing - 'good right hand by Carpentier'. And that's just one round (2nd), the rest are no better.

 

Carpentier hit Lewis while the ref actually was touching Lewis's arm but while unsporting it wasnt a fix,Carpentier stopped some second tier heavyweights like Wells twice,remember we are talking about him fighting a middleweight ,even if it was one as savage as Ketchel.Havent seen the Nilles fight ,but I have read Carpentiers at biography.

 

What about the the Jeannette fight?

 

Jeannette fight had been discussed at CBZ already. One thing to note, though, it looks to me that English press, despite usual not very good relationship between French and English, was praising Carpentier a bit too much, so that the account from that British source of the Jeannette fight (posted at CBZ) might have been somewhat biased in Carpentier's favor, probably because of England not faring very well at heavier weights internationally (ie vs. US), at the time.

 

So if Carpentier is praised, it is bias?

 

I don't see the evidence on film of him possessing all of these things he is attributed with by some authors, this is what makes me think there's some bias in writings about him.