Stirring the Jeffries-Johnson pot...

You are correct about Denver Ed Smith never beating Johnson, I think that may be the second time i have confused that one recently (oops)

I also agree with you that i doubt that the Smith bout took place, i only mentioned it, as i was mentioning unconfirmed bouts.

The 65 rounder that Johnson supossedly fought against Griffin (and his other fights) are mentioned as unconfirmed fights on Cyberboxing zone. I am only guessing and have no idea whether this fight took place, but it could have and i think that those two guys would have even more unrecorded fights than what i think Jeffries probably has. Either way, it doesnt change the point that i was making in that Johnson was at a similar level to Griffin who Johnson.

Incidentally, Hopefully none of this will discredit Johnson, because i think he is one of the greatest ever.

 

I might be stepping into one of the squishier patties in the pasture by bringing this up, but when the other poster refers to Denver Ed Martin, you respond referring to Denver Ed Smith. Am I missing something? I thought they were different men.

 

Good posts mattdonellion and Boilermaker

 

The Denver Ed Smith and Denver Ed Martin references confuse me, but then again I am getting pretty old. I couldn't quite follow what was being said, but it might be just my fault.

 

You're not getting old, just seasoned....

 

Seasoned? 60? You guys are young pups!

Hart beating Johnson was just one of those things...in my opinion. I think, if Johnson had fought Hart 10 times, Johnson would have beaten Hart 9 times. Jeffries would have beaten Hart rather easily, I think. Interesting quote, though. I had never seen that one before. Thanks for posting it, even if I did have to press my nose to the screen to see it. :good

 

I get my Denver Ed Martins and Gunboat smiths all muddled sometimes. It was early morning here, and i was only up because i was crook. I think i better have a restart and a refresh on this one. It was probably the small font that put me off!

 

Jeffries deserves about the same level of censure for not fighting Johnson in 1904 or 1905 as Louis does for not fighting Elmer Ray in 1947 instead of laying off, or Marciano does for not fighting Nino Valdes in 1955. The criticism is legitimate but limited. Johnson blew a fight to Hart. Ray blew a fight to Walcott. Valdes blew a fight to Moore. Jeff was willing to fight Hart but apparently no one was interested. Louis fought Walcott and Marciano fought Moore.

What hurts Jeffries in the eyes of history is that while Ray and Valdes faded quickly out of top contender status and are seen in retrospect as clearly inferior to Walcott and Moore, Johnson went on to be the dominant fighter of the next decade. Had Johnson lost a few and faded from the scene, few would even remember the controversy in 1904 about challenging Jeffries.

 

I agree with you here. Lennox Lewis not fighting Chris Byrd is another example, as is Ali ducking Holmes before the end of his reign and i am sure there are quite a few others in a similar situation. I guess the biggest difference between us is that in all of those cases, i would give all the champions zero criticism for not defending against the live challenger.