Stonehands' (~Objective) Top 10 HW Champions.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Stonehands89, Jan 27, 2009.


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  1. prime

    prime BOX! Writing Champion Full Member

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    How many "highly ranked/regarded/feared contenders" to me sounds like it belongs in the Experience/Level of Competition bracket; the other factors you mention I am confident I considered under Dominance.

    If you're gonna bring in size, it won't hold water in Dempsey's case considering who he destroyed to win the title. Again, I considered the Dominance category as my judgment of how well a champion handled his challengers and extrapolated to the rest of the division at his time. If not, we risk bringing political decisions made outside the ring into play and this is not something I want to consider when determining the best. Sure, Page and Coetzee (as was Jumbo Cummings) were out there for Holmes, who was technically always half a champion. But that to me is irrelevant here. Holmes was the acknowledged best heavyweight in the world in his time, but...he looked beatable too many times against mediocrities and in my book that is what lowers his grade here. His lengthy reign gets kudos in my Longevity department, as I have mentioned before. Thus, since I believe Dempsey would have handled Wills, Kearns' ploys are dismissed here.

    As a romantic at heart, I recognize romanticization when I see it, but have little patience for it when rating sports legends, actually. With Dempsey there seems to be universal consensus that he was a great fighter. But, you know? What convinced me about this was the films. He was well ahead of his time, and no less than a bloodthirsty beast in the ring, with highly developed ability and skills. So this squat, feathered, quacking creature to me is a duck. And, by the way, you know as well as I I mentioned the Sharkey fight as an example of Dempsey's relative longevity as an able fighter, not his dominance as champ.

    What did poor Joe have to do to make you a believer in him as a dominant champ? Tell me, how many of your top fighters besides Ali himself slung a more highly-valued scalp over his shoulder? And the Grant example is not very good, in my opinion. Grant was a hyped challenger, undisputedly stopped in the second round of his title shot, to fade into Bolivian forevermore. Frazier was on top, having cleaned out his division, turning back none other than a hungry, undefeated GOAT, when he so deservedly began to be compared with the best of all time.

    Probably just Holmes.

    In a ratings system of only 6 elements, much compression is necessary. Of course, on the face of it 37 fights is laughable as an example of relatively good longevity (durability). But Frazier's barreling style must be taken into account here, as well as his ability to still fight at the highest level in Manila despite the beatings he took from Ali himself and Foreman, being a sick and one-eyed man to begin with. To me, a 7 is too close to mediocre. An 8 to me better reflects this man's toughness.

    Tyson never took a beating like the one Ali administered at FOTC and won. Tyson never tasted as many powershots as Frazier did from Foreman. Regardless, again, the difference here is styles: Frazier's demanded taking punishment; Tyson's was to avoid it. And, besides, a guy can pad his record fighting fainting Rhinos and Butterbeans but that shouldn't add to his longevity. :good
     
    prime, Jan 31, 2009
    prime, Jan 31, 2009
    #91
  2. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    First things first. Your rebuttals are excellent. They're prime. Seriously.

    You bring up something that we have to work out: Namely, the difference between Experience/Level of competition and Dominance. I attempted to begin the differentiation by limiting the latter to title reign while the former is career-long.

    You say that Dominance is your "judgment of how well a champion handled his challengers and extrapolated to the rest of the division at his time." I like that... however I think we need to consider who was clearly avoided. Wills was a between #1 and #6 during Dempsey's reign. Dempsey should have fought him... he didn't and that is a problem because it detracts from claims of dominance. Wills was clearly avoided. "Clearly" helps us to limit the focus to extreme cases... Your thoughts?

    And it wasn't just Wills and the refusal to give a brutha a chance. Dempsey was also inactive for years. How can a man claim dominance if he doesn't prove it?

    Dempsey's stand-out films for me are the Willard fight and the Tate sparring sessions. I stand with Arcel on how great he really was.... but there's a problem. After Willard he deteriorated quickly. Now that intense fighting style is doomed to have a short shelf-life, but Dempsey Goes to Hollywood didn't help him either. By the time he faced Tunney he was a quarter of what he was in 1919....

    You effectively have two Dempsey's here. I like the one who sped towards the title and took it... after that, well.....these ratings are focussed on championship reigns. You'll note how highly I rate his RG... a 9. Because at his best, he was nothing less. But his reign should have been more.

    The defeat of Ali was magnficent. His next fight illustrated well "how the mighty are fallen." I'll up him from a 5 to 6, though. Fair?

    I'd agree.

    Frazier's style was, as stated, cheetah-like in terms of longevity... but them there's the breaks. And only 37 fights. He has to stay low in L.

    I think you may be arguing that he should get an 8 instead of a 7 for A(dversity Overcome) due to Manila. I can't do that, because he didn't overcome it. Blame Futch not me!

    Tyson is 4 points less than Frazier in A. He did, however, have more Longevity even if he was beating on "fainting Rhinos" and Poles on Prozac.
     
    Stonehands89, Feb 1, 2009
    Stonehands89, Feb 1, 2009
    #92
  3. ironchamp

    ironchamp Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Agreed. Tyson if anything was unequivocally the MAN during his reign. You knew he was champion. More importantly he was regarded as the best fighter in the world. HW's don't top p4p lists, and when they do- its because they are pretty good fighters.
     
    ironchamp, Feb 2, 2009
    ironchamp, Feb 2, 2009
    #93
  4. prime

    prime BOX! Writing Champion Full Member

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    Thanks, buddy.

    I originally dove coldly into rating my head-to-head list when I first saw your thread --on purpose-- to see what would happen. I like the results (nothing like "Blink" judgments), but believe that, upon seeing "Dominance" for the first time, I envisioned the fighter at his peak without much regard, as stated before, to the objective quality of his reign. And I agree with you, as the author, in focusing on same henceforth; otherwise, "Dominance" is too similar to "Ring Generalship/Formidability of Style".

    In the spirit of drinking in your judgment and seeing if we can agree on rating criteria (by and large, I personally think 4s and 5s have little place when grading men considered the best), here are your first five rated fighters, with some of my observations
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    prime, Feb 3, 2009
    prime, Feb 3, 2009
    #94
  5. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Fair criticisms. I'll take these one at a time.

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    I'll take this under advisement..!
     
    Stonehands89, Feb 4, 2009
    Stonehands89, Feb 4, 2009
    #95
  6. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Thanks to prime and his argumentative skills -many amendments his due.
     
    Stonehands89, Feb 5, 2009
    Stonehands89, Feb 5, 2009
    #96
  7. asero

    asero Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    would you think had holyfield fight at HW at the start of his career, would his ranking change?
     
    asero, Feb 5, 2009
    asero, Feb 5, 2009
    #97
  8. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Holyfield was a manufactured heavyweight -he did it significantly better than Spinks, but he was a natural Cruiser. If he were naturally a larger man then I think he would have had an easier time handling the Bowe's and the Lewis's of the division... so my answer would be yes.
     
    Stonehands89, Feb 5, 2009
    Stonehands89, Feb 5, 2009
    #98
  9. Robbi

    Robbi Marvelous Full Member

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    Holyfield done a lot of exercises and strength work, underwater, during his transition from cruiserweight to heavyweight. By all accounts he was very thorough and dedicated while adding the weight he needed to add. I'm sure you know all about his techniques and training methods as he was moving up.
     
    Robbi, Feb 5, 2009
    Robbi, Feb 5, 2009
    #99
  10. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    Bump for a very interesting thread, back in the day.
     
    JohnThomas1, Oct 15, 2023
    JohnThomas1, Oct 15, 2023
    #100
    ikrasevic likes this.
  11. Stevie G

    Stevie G Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Good list,Stonehands. You've clearly put a lot of research in.
     
    Stevie G, Oct 16, 2023
    Stevie G, Oct 16, 2023
    #101
    JohnThomas1 likes this.
  12. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    JohnThomas1, Oct 16, 2023
    JohnThomas1, Oct 16, 2023
    #102
  13. Ioakeim Tzortzakis

    Ioakeim Tzortzakis Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Would be interesting to see where Wlad would rank where he to come back and do one on him. He is a clear 10 in longevity and a 9 at dominance in title reign, the Brewster and Sanders losses keep him from being a 10. Level of competition would be around 6 I think. Ring Generalship I would say is around 8. If Tyson is a 3 at adversity, then I don't think Wlad would be much higher, if at all. Does the other best man in the division being your brother count as a special circumstance ? If so, then I think he would rank around 7th-8th.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2023
    Ioakeim Tzortzakis, Oct 16, 2023
    Ioakeim Tzortzakis, Oct 16, 2023
    #103
    Greg Price99 likes this.
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