Sugar Ray - GOAT? For ALL Time?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Rumsfeld, Jun 15, 2022.



SRR - The GOAT? For ALL Time?

  1. Yes & Yes

    58.1%
  2. Yes & No

    18.6%
  3. No & No

    23.3%
  1. Jel

    Jel Obsessive list maker Full Member

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    Very good and fair post.
     
  2. Jel

    Jel Obsessive list maker Full Member

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    On the question of whether SRR will remain the GOAT for all time, I think if you already consider him the greatest of all time, it’s hard to imagine someone coming along in future who could supersede him. The only way I could be convinced is if a) fight footage turned up of Greb b) that footage was compelling enough to change my mind. I hope I’m wrong but I don’t think fight footage of Greb is ever going to turn up.

    In my opinion, no recent or future fighter is going to match Robinson’s combination of achievements. Someone mentioned Roy Jones if he had retired before getting KO’ed. He’d have a case but he’d also have a quarter of the fights that Robinson had. For me, longevity and the ability to come back from defeat (and not retire completely ignominiously) is also a consideration and paints a more complete picture of a fighter. I can’t pretend Roy didn’t get flattened repeatedly and Robinson, despite losing fights, never did once. Prime for prime there’s maybe an argument about who was actually better, but taking the whole scope of their respective careers, Robinson clearly comes out on top in terms of greatness.
     
  3. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I didn't say anyone was a deceiver. No-decison fights were often contested back then by big names because all you had to do was show up and work and you got paid, like Tyson and Jones.

    And people enjoyed them.

    Nobody lost unless they got knocked out. And the vast majority of the time, people didn't.

    The problem is when people go back 100 years later and go around looking at old papers, adding up how many voted for one or the other, and proclaiming someone the decision winner nearly a century later, when the whole point at the time was NO ONE would be declared the decision winner.

    There were no judges. No one's hand was raised at the end after a decision was read. There was no decision.

    If they both thought a winner would be officially declared, they probably would fight differently. Like Mike Tyson might actually try to take Roy Jones' head off.

    When you go back and look at fighters records printed in old papers, and they list maybe their last 10 fights, they'll say this was a win, this one a loss, and these were no decisions. And the record will just say ND. It's not positive or negative. They were what they were.

    But people today look at all those newspaper sections Greb won. When it was basically like Snoop going I think Roy won.

    There wasn't some consensus back then that Greb was the greatest ever.

    No one hyping him today has even seen him fight.

    They base it on unofficial verdicts taken totally out of context.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2022
  4. White Bomber

    White Bomber Boxing Addict Full Member

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    He looks better than most I've seen.
    Who did you have in mind ?
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2022
  5. Levook

    Levook Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Again - I asked if you had any proof of Greb's ND wins being fixed - I am not interested in your OPINION on this.
     
  6. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Proof they were fixed? What are you talking about? How do you fix a no-decision fight? There is no-decision.

    Do you know what a no-decision fight even is? Seems like you don't.

    NOBODY WON No-decision fights on a decision.

    When the fights went the distance, it was over. No hands were raised. That was it. Everyone congratulated each other and got paid.

    There were no judges.

    So anyone who says Greb won a no-decision fight by DECISION is just compiling opinions of people who had no official say in the matter.

    Unless you starched someone, nobody won, nobody lost.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2022
  7. Rumsfeld

    Rumsfeld Moderator Staff Member

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    Are you suggesting that, in essence then, if we go to an old-timers BoxRec, that any decision listed as NWS should be omitted from the official ledger? Or am I misunderstanding?
     
  8. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    They already are. Go to Harry Greb's Boxrec page. His win/loss total at the top is like 108-8-3 (although I only count 106).

    The other fights are listed as Newspaper wins, but they aren't on the official count at the top.

    All his newspaper losses aren't included at the top. All his Newspaper wins aren't, either.

    His eight losses and three draws are his knockout loss to Joe Chip in 1913, his TKO loss to journeyman Kid Graves in 1915, draw with journeyman Jackie Clark in 1917, his draw with Jeff Smith in 1921, his two losses to Gene Tunney in 1923, his loss to Tommy Loughran in 1923, his loss to Kid Norfolk in 1924, and his two losses to Tiger Flowers in 1926.

    If you add up the 108 wins (I actually counted 106), they are just the fights where he won an actual decision or KO.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2022
  9. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    If you also dig you find out that of like 70 of his 100 or so ACTUAL (someone wrote down a score and handed it to the announcer) WINS, half of those 70 came against guys with losing records, and half came against complete journeymen.

    By journeymen, I mean people who with records like 16-12-2 or 10-7-1 or 5-4 records ... not guys with 25 wins and 8 losses, which would be considered journeymen now.

    All his knockouts except for maybe two, came against complete nobodies, most with losing records.

    This entire "Greb fixation" in recent years all derives from his unofficial "NO-DECISION" DECISION wins, it seems.
     
  10. Rumsfeld

    Rumsfeld Moderator Staff Member

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    Good stuff, all. I'll take your word that it only adds up to 106. :lol:

    But are all NWS wins inherently equal (or equally invalid as you're suggesting).

    Are detailed newspaper accounts of fights worthless to you in any context? In other words, do you not find value in any historical account of any old ND fight, even ones that were clearly more heated than your Tyson-RJJ comparison might indicate?

    I'm not trying to push your buttons here. I'm genuinely interested in how you value these things, or if you do at all.

    I still remember you from way back in the late 1990s on BoxingWise.

    :thumbsup:
     
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  11. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    No, I understand Rummy. We're good.
     
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  12. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    My answer is no & no. The first is simply that I find a couple to be a little bit greater; and by a little bit, I mean I have absolutely zero qualms with any of them being number one. My entire top five has an order that I like, but as long as at least four of them are in a top five, I don't see any reason to call that list 'wrong'. I personally have Greb, Langford, Armstrong and Charles as greater. Although I do go back and forth between having Robinson at four or five.

    I didn't just vote no because I don't have Robinson at one, though. I think we're past the time where someone could replicate or especially overcome Robinson's accomplishments. Superstars don't fight often enough any more to build that sort of resume and plain and simply, for whatever reason, the competition in boxing has scarcely reached what it was at Robinson's peak. The 70s did, but that's about it. I can't really see a trend which indicates it'll change in both the extreme competition, and the schedule needed to beat enough of them to match Robinson's. And obviously, they'd need to be near Robinson's level in the first place, which you can count the fighters on one hand who have actually reached that.

    He was that good.
     
  13. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Here's my take.

    The guys signed up back then for a no-decision. If the fight goes the distance, nobody wins, nobody loses. Everyone agreed. There are countless reports of fans booing boxers in no-decisions because they look like they are just going through the motions. That was part of it. It didn't go on their records. It just showed up in papers at the time as an ND.

    I think when Miske or someone fought Dempsey, they listed his record of opponents in a paper, and the Greb fights were just ND. And it looked like he fought Harry Greb a bunch of times. Nobody said he LOST. They were no decisions.

    Do I discount the reporting? Read the round by rounds on these boards. People are watching the same rounds from the same view and nobody can agree on anything.

    I'm sure Snoop and other celebs on the panel the night Tyson and Jones fought thought Roy Jones did better against Mike Tyson and that's why he said he thought Roy Jones won. But they agreed beforehand there would be no decision. That's why they both agreed to do it. It was just for entertainment. Decades from now, should that be considered a WIN for Roy Jones? No.

    Considering most of the newspaper accounts from Greb's NO DECISION DECISIONS come from his local Pennsylvania papers, there isn't a lot of coverage to choose from to get an unbiased viewpoint.

    Regardless, both fighters agreed before the fight there would be no decision. That's why they all fought so many. It was a way to make money and the fans liked them. They didn't have to give their best effort. They were getting paid regardless.

    So why people feel the need, DECADES LATER, to try to apply rules and scores and winners and losers that didn't apply then to a fight makes no sense.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2022
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  14. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    You laugh, but there are a lot of dogs in that 108 or 106.

    It's a fine record. But it's not the record of the greatest fighter of all times ... certainly having not even seen any of these fights.

    1913
    (Greb's actual won loss record for the year 4-1 ... three of them against losing fighters)

    Young Nelson TKO3 (1-0)
    Joe Chip LKO2
    Lloyd Crutcher KO1 (Lloyd’s only fight - no wins)
    Battling Murphy TKO2 (no wins)
    Red Cumpston KO2 (no wins)

    1914
    (Greb's actual won loss record for the year 1-0)

    Mickey Rodgers DQ5

    1915
    (Greb's actual won-loss record for the year 1-1)

    Kid Graves LTKO2 (journeyman)
    George Hauser KO6 (losing fighter)

    1916
    (Greb's actual won-loss record for the year 4-0 )
    Jackie Clark KO3 (journeyman)
    Jackie Clark W10 (journeyman)
    Fay Keiser W10
    Kid Manuel KO1 (losing fighter)

    1917
    (Greb's actual won-loss record for the year 17-0-1 ... with 13 of them coming against losing fighters or journeymen)

    Gus Christie W12 (journeyman)
    Terry Martin KO3 (losing record)
    George Chip W10
    Gus Christie W8
    Johnny Howard TKO9
    Battling Kopin TKO3 (losing record)
    George Brown TKO9 (losing record)
    Jack London TKO9 (2-1 record)
    Buck Crouse TKO6
    Frank Mantel KO1 (losing record)
    Harry Baker KO5 (losing record)
    Jackie Clark D20 (journeyman)
    Young Ahearn KO 1
    Young Miller TKO5 (journeyman)
    Tommy Gavigan TKO 5 (journeyman)
    Fay Keiser W20 (Journeyman)
    Jule Ritchie TKO4 (losing fighter)
    Eddie Coleman KO2 (losing fighter)

    1918
    (Greb's record for the year 6-0 ... four of the wins against journeymen)
    Eddie McGoorty W10
    Al McCoy W10 (journeyman)
    Bob Moha W10 (journeyman)
    Jack Hubbard KO3 (losing record)
    Augie Ratner W20
    Battling Kopin KO1

    1919
    (Greb's record for the year 9-0 ... six coming against journeymen)

    Soldier Jones KO5 (journeyman)
    Terry Kellar W15 (losing record)
    Bill Brennan W15 (H)
    Yankee Gilbert TKO4 (losing record)
    Joe Borrell TKO5 (journeyman)
    Clay Turner W12
    Tommy Madden KO2 (losing record)
    Len Rowlands TKO4 (journeyman)
    Leo Houck W12

    1920
    (Greb's record for the year 7-0 ... six of the wins coming against journeymen)

    Bob Roper W10 (journeyman)
    Jack Duffy TKO6 (losing record)
    Gunboat Smith KO1 (LH)
    Ted Jamieson TKO6 (1journeyman)
    Bob Roper W12 (journeyman)
    George Brown W12 (losing record)
    Tommy Robson W12 (journeyman)

    1921
    (Greb's record for the year 10-0-1 ... with six coming against journeymen)

    Whitey Allen TKO6 (LH) (losing record)
    Homer Smith TKO5 (journeyman)
    Charlie Weinert W15 (H)
    Jimmy Darcy W10 (LH) (journeyman)
    Joe Cox W12 (H) (journeyman)
    Jeff Smith DRAW (LH)
    Jimmy Darcy W10 (journeyman)
    Soldier Jones KO4 (LH) (journeyman)
    Happy Littleton W15 (M)
    Jeff Smith W10
    Pal Reed W10

    1922
    (Greb's record for the year 6-0 with four of them coming against journeymen)

    Bob Roper W12 (H) (journeyman)
    Larry Williams TKO4 (H) (journeyman)
    Al Benedict TKO 3 (H) (Losing record)
    Gene Tunney W15 (LH)
    Al Roberts KO6 (LH) (journeyman)
    Tommy Gibbons W15 (LH)

    1923
    (Greb's record for the year 6-3 ... only two journeymen)
    Tommy Loughran W10 (LH)
    Gene Tunney L15 (LH)
    Bryan Downey W10 World Middleweight Title
    Tommy Loughran L10 (LH)
    Johnny Wilson W15 World Middleweight Title
    Len Rowlands KO3 (losing record)
    Gene Tunney L15 (LH)
    Young Fisher W12 (LH) journeyman
    Tommy Loughran W15 (LH)

    1924
    (Greb's record for the year 12-1-1 ... eight coming against journeymen)

    Frank Ritz TKO3 (losing record)
    Jimmy Delaney W10 (LH)
    Ray Nelson (KO3) (losing record - Ray had no wins)
    Tommy Loughran DRAW (LH)
    Billy Hirsch TKO8 (journeyman)
    Jimmy Slattery W6
    Ted Moore W15 World Middleweight Title
    Frank Moody KO 6 (LH)
    Pal Reed W10 (LH) (journeyman)
    Jackie Clark TKO2 (journeyman)
    Kid Norfolk DQ Loss (LH)
    Fay Keiser (journeyman)
    Jack Reeves W4 (LH) (journeyman)
    Johnny Wilson W15 World Middleweight title (considered a close fight)

    1925
    (Greb's record for the year 16-0 with 12 of them coming against journeymen)

    Soldier Buck W8 (H) (journeyman)
    Tony Marullo W15 (LH) (Journeyman)
    Tony Marullo W10 (LH) (journeyman)
    Pat Walsh TKO2 (LH) (losing record)
    Ed Smith KO4 (LH) (2-1 record)
    Otis Bryant (TKO3 (LH) (losing record)
    Billy Britton W10 (LH) (journeyman)
    Mickey Walker W15 – World Middleweight Title
    Jimmy Nuss (KO4) (journeyman)
    Billy Britton W12 (LH) (journeyman)
    Jack Reddick (LH)
    Johnny Wilson W10 (LH)
    Young Fisher WDQ (LH) (Losing record)
    Billy Britton W10 (LH) (journeyman)
    Johnny Papke TKO7 (LH) (Losing record)
    Augie Ratnher W10 (LH) (journeyman)

    1926
    (Greb's record for the year 8-2 ... four coming against journeymen)
    Tiger Flowers – lost 15 points – Middleweight Title Challenge
    Allentown Gans – W10 points (LH) (journeyman)
    Art Weigand – W10 points (LH) (journeyman)
    Tiger Flowers - Lost 15 points – Lost Middleweight Title
    Owen Phelps – W10 (LH)
    Jimmy Delaney – W10 (LH)
    Buck Holley – TKO (Journeyman)
    Ted Moore - W10 (LH)
    Joe Lohman - W10 (LH) (Lohman had a losing record)
    Roland Todd – W12 (LH)
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2022
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  15. Oddone

    Oddone Bermane Stiverne's life coach. Full Member

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    Trying to reason with that guy is like searching for darkness using a torch.