Sugar Ray - GOAT? For ALL Time?

DS Phil Hunter · Jun 19, 2022

I personally feel Ray Leonard was better as a boxer overall, he also had a decorated amateur career with an Olympic Gold Medal too.

Rumsfeld · Jun 19, 2022

Dubblechin said: ↑

You laugh, but there are a lot of dogs in that 108 or 106.

It's a fine record. But it's not the record of the greatest fighter of all times ... certainly having not even seen any of these fights.

1913
(Greb's actual won loss record for the year 4-1 ... three of them against losing fighters)
Young Nelson TKO3 (1-0)
Joe Chip LKO2
Lloyd Crutcher KO1 (Lloyd’s only fight - no wins)
Battling Murphy TKO2 (no wins)
Red Cumpston KO2 (no wins)

1914
(Greb's actual won loss record for the year 1-0)
Mickey Rodgers DQ5

1915
(Greb's actual won-loss record for the year 1-1)
Kid Graves LTKO2 (journeyman)
George Hauser KO6 (losing fighter)

1916
(Greb's actual won-loss record for the year 4-0 )
Jackie Clark KO3 (journeyman)
Jackie Clark W10 (journeyman)
Fay Keiser W10
Kid Manuel KO1 (losing fighter)

1917
(Greb's actual won-loss record for the year 17-0-1 ... with 13 of them coming against losing fighters or journeymen)
Gus Christie W12 (journeyman)
Terry Martin KO3 (losing record)
George Chip W10
Gus Christie W8
Johnny Howard TKO9
Battling Kopin TKO3 (losing record)
George Brown TKO9 (losing record)
Jack London TKO9 (2-1 record)
Buck Crouse TKO6
Frank Mantel KO1 (losing record)
Harry Baker KO5 (losing record)
Jackie Clark D20 (journeyman)
Young Ahearn KO 1
Young Miller TKO5 (journeyman)
Tommy Gavigan TKO 5 (journeyman)
Fay Keiser W20 (Journeyman)
Jule Ritchie TKO4 (losing fighter)
Eddie Coleman KO2 (losing fighter)

1918
(Greb's record for the year 6-0 ... four of the wins against journeymen)
Eddie McGoorty W10
Al McCoy W10 (journeyman)
Bob Moha W10 (journeyman)
Jack Hubbard KO3 (losing record)
Augie Ratner W20
Battling Kopin KO1

1919
(Greb's record for the year 9-0 ... six coming against journeymen)
Soldier Jones KO5 (journeyman)
Terry Kellar W15 (losing record)
Bill Brennan W15 (H)
Yankee Gilbert TKO4 (losing record)
Joe Borrell TKO5 (journeyman)
Clay Turner W12
Tommy Madden KO2 (losing record)
Len Rowlands TKO4 (journeyman)
Leo Houck W12

1920
(Greb's record for the year 7-0 ... six of the wins coming against journeymen)
Bob Roper W10 (journeyman)
Jack Duffy TKO6 (losing record)
Gunboat Smith KO1 (LH)
Ted Jamieson TKO6 (1journeyman)
Bob Roper W12 (journeyman)
George Brown W12 (losing record)
Tommy Robson W12 (journeyman)

1921
(Greb's record for the year 10-0-1 ... with six coming against journeymen)
Whitey Allen TKO6 (LH) (losing record)
Homer Smith TKO5 (journeyman)
Charlie Weinert W15 (H)
Jimmy Darcy W10 (LH) (journeyman)
Joe Cox W12 (H) (journeyman)
Jeff Smith DRAW (LH)
Jimmy Darcy W10 (journeyman)
Soldier Jones KO4 (LH) (journeyman)
Happy Littleton W15 (M)
Jeff Smith W10
Pal Reed W10

1922
(Greb's record for the year 6-0 with four of them coming against journeymen)
Bob Roper W12 (H) (journeyman)
Larry Williams TKO4 (H) (journeyman)
Al Benedict TKO 3 (H) (Losing record)
Gene Tunney W15 (LH)
Al Roberts KO6 (LH) (journeyman)
Tommy Gibbons W15 (LH)

1923
(Greb's record for the year 6-3 ... only two journeymen)
Tommy Loughran W10 (LH)
Gene Tunney L15 (LH)
Bryan Downey W10 World Middleweight Title
Tommy Loughran L10 (LH)
Johnny Wilson W15 World Middleweight Title
Len Rowlands KO3 (losing record)
Gene Tunney L15 (LH)
Young Fisher W12 (LH) journeyman
Tommy Loughran W15 (LH)

1924
(Greb's record for the year 12-1-1 ... eight coming against journeymen)
Frank Ritz TKO3 (losing record)
Jimmy Delaney W10 (LH)
Ray Nelson (KO3) (losing record - Ray had no wins)
Tommy Loughran DRAW (LH)
Billy Hirsch TKO8 (journeyman)
Jimmy Slattery W6
Ted Moore W15 World Middleweight Title
Frank Moody KO 6 (LH)
Pal Reed W10 (LH) (journeyman)
Jackie Clark TKO2 (journeyman)
Kid Norfolk DQ Loss (LH)
Fay Keiser (journeyman)
Jack Reeves W4 (LH) (journeyman)
Johnny Wilson W15 World Middleweight title (considered a close fight)

1925
(Greb's record for the year 16-0 with 12 of them coming against journeymen)
Soldier Buck W8 (H) (journeyman)
Tony Marullo W15 (LH) (Journeyman)
Tony Marullo W10 (LH) (journeyman)
Pat Walsh TKO2 (LH) (losing record)
Ed Smith KO4 (LH) (2-1 record)
Otis Bryant (TKO3 (LH) (losing record)
Billy Britton W10 (LH) (journeyman)
Mickey Walker W15 – World Middleweight Title
Jimmy Nuss (KO4) (journeyman)
Billy Britton W12 (LH) (journeyman)
Jack Reddick (LH)
Johnny Wilson W10 (LH)
Young Fisher WDQ (LH) (Losing record)
Billy Britton W10 (LH) (journeyman)
Johnny Papke TKO7 (LH) (Losing record)
Augie Ratnher W10 (LH) (journeyman)

1926
(Greb's record for the year 8-2 ... four coming against journeymen)
Tiger Flowers – lost 15 points – Middleweight Title Challenge
Allentown Gans – W10 points (LH) (journeyman)
Art Weigand – W10 points (LH) (journeyman)
Tiger Flowers - Lost 15 points – Lost Middleweight Title
Owen Phelps – W10 (LH)
Jimmy Delaney – W10 (LH)
Buck Holley – TKO (Journeyman)
Ted Moore - W10 (LH)
Joe Lohman - W10 (LH) (Lohman had a losing record)
Roland Todd – W12 (LH)
Click to expand...

JohnThomas1 · Jun 20, 2022

Jel said: ↑

Great video as always @Rumsfeld!

My take on SRR is as follows:

Welterweight - open and shut case. Hands down the greatest ever in this division. Won every fight he ever had there, was a physical freak during his era - at 5’11 he was one of, if not the tallest elite 147 pounders there had been up to that point and would only be giving up 3 inches max over the tallest ever elite welters who have come since, including Hearns - and possessed untouchable skills combined with mind-numbing power. He was the complete package and was the best in his weight class for 8 years until he moved up. As close to unbeatable as any fighter ever was in a single weight division. There is a disappointing amount of footage of him at his absolute peak but what there is combined with later footage at middleweight gives enough of a picture of his greatness at his best weight.

Middleweight is trickier. People forget that a lot of his fights in the 40s came against middleweights, even though he was still competing as a welter, not least of them against Jake LaMotta who he beat 4 out of 5 during that decade. So, during his physical peak he had a fantastic numerical record at middleweight and it was only in the early 50s that he slipped a little as he was turning 30. His title record for much of the 50s was spotty, but this was when he was 35+ (when that was really old in boxing terms) and he still won the title a further 3 times. He’s a top 4 middleweight without a doubt and that’s worst case.

Had he won the light-heavyweight title as well? I think that would make it very hard to argue that he wasn’t the all-time p4p number 1. As it is, it leaves enough of a chink to allow others to reasonably contest that title. Would a win over Joey Maxim really be the difference for him over Greb or even Ezzard Charles? I don’t know. I have no doubt he was miles better than Maxim and conditions conspired against him that night and on another occasion he’d have taken the title. But it wasn’t to be…

Where SRR has the advantage over the likes of Greb is that we have a more complete picture (literally). The footage of him fighting backs up his resume and accomplishments. If Greb footage turns up, maybe I’ll reconsider. If resume alone was the only factor, then maybe Greb would get the nod but Robinson has the complete package of resume, accomplishments, aesthetics and longevity that tips things in his favour for me.
Click to expand...

Really great post Jel.

Jel · Jun 20, 2022

JohnThomas1 said: ↑

Really great post Jel.
Click to expand...

Thanks JT!

BitPlayerVesti · Jun 20, 2022

lufcrazy said: ↑

This is a really bad post. How do you define which fighters are journeymen or not? Because it seems to me you know nothing about the era.

Also your blanket dismissal of NWS fights is ridiculous, for a few reasons.
Click to expand...

He mentions that a decision win was consiered clsoe, but not that his loss to Kid Graves was due to Greb breaking his arm.

It's just a blatant agenda post.

northpaw · Jun 20, 2022

Sugar Ray is the greatest ever.

I'm sorry and I know a lot of guys consider Harry Greb, I just can't. I haven't seen him do anything, and let's be honest, the guys in the teens-20's etc... were quite crude. Even without seeing Ray at WW, we still have enough of him at MW to form an opinion of him being aesthetically phenomenal. And his skill set holds up to this very day, you still simply don't see many fighters that could do in the ring what Ray Robinson did. That is amazing.

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Sugar Ray - GOAT? For ALL Time?

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Sugar Ray - GOAT? For ALL Time?

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