Sugar Ray Leonard On April 6 1987

Yes mate, I think Marvin was definitely more shopworn.

Yes, Marvin had tough fights in some tough places, for peanuts in comparison to what Ray made.

Ray was 'The Golden Boy' after the 76 Olympics.


:good

 

Well the big thing is with the Ray Leonard types is that they are an opportunist of the highest order. So even with Marvin deteriorating, a guy still has to go out there on fight night and beat him. The opportunist ability can't be understated and is more important than punching power.

It wasn't exactly a silver platter, but it was a reasonable fight for him to win. The great one's seem to rise to the occassion and defy the odds. Who can truly be surprised? Nobody was picking Leonard to get the ko afterall. It was an outboxing him type victory and boxing brains he was going to have to resort to and accomplish. And he did it over a guy that had not tasted defeat in a long time.

 

By posting this you admitted that your comment of "they were both faded" was irrelevant because "Ray was a lot fresher".
So either Ray was nearly in his prime and Hagler far removed from his, or Ray was past his prime and Hagler was more shot than I thought.
There is no way around it.

 

Agreed:good. I remember quite well as I was in my 20s at the time. But Hagler was fighting once every 1-1 1/2 times a year at that point. And I also remember that he looked like a hittable slowpoke without reflexes against Roldan AND Mugabi, and Merchant said so as well. Just for ****s and giggles, do you remember that, too?

 

****, smoke and mirrors

 

Fact is, AFTER the Hagler fight, Leonard knocked out Donny LaLonde at 168 for the 175 title and newly formed 168 title. And he drew with Tommy(although I believe Tommy won) at Tommy's best weight of 154. Just saying.

 

I do, sure, but he also stopped both those guys. I also remember the magazines still ranking him at worst #2 pound for pound in the world after that, leading up to the Leonard fight.

Am I trying to suggest he was the same Hagler that butchered Minter, Scypion and Sibson? Of course not. That would be silly.
I am suggesting that Hagler was still feared and well-thought of as a dominant champ, and that no real chance was given to Leonard. I'm suggesting that to merely sneer now, this many years on and sniff "Oh, well of course Hagler was shot" as if everyone thought then that it was a total setup for Leonard is just stupid. It wasn't that way at all.

 

It was well known Hagler was past his best. Now and then. It was known that SRL had all the power in the negotiations and Hagler was bending over and taking it. Cash rules.

 

All your points are valid, but the fact remains that he looked like **** against both Roldan and Mugabi, 2 guys that the Hagler of Minter, Scypion and Sibson would have easily outboxed instead of the one that had to go to war. And that was quite obvious to anyone that was paying serious attention to Hagler's career. Hagler was still the formidable and undefeated for what, 10 years going into the Leonard fight (and most important still the undisputed middle weight champ) which is why he was still universally rated so high. That kind of reminds me of the Kostya Tszyu situation going into the Ricky Hatton fight. But the fact is Hagler looked horrible against Roldan and that was evident to anyone seriously paying attention to him at that point.

 

And yet that same guy that looked horrible against Roldan looked sharp against Hamsho the second time, and then got his career-defining win against Hearns after that.

 

This is a perfect example of Leonard hood winking gullible fools.

Fact.

Leonard demanded Lalonde weigh no more than 169. ( even though he wanted to fight for Donny's 175 title.)

Fact.

Leonard demanded Tommy weighed no more than 163 ( even though they were supposed to be fighting for a 168 title ) in Hearns next 2 fights he weighed 168, and 173 respectively.

These facts are not a problem if you declare yourself a Leonard fanboy, but it is pure bullsh it to try and claim these fights were anything other than catchweights, and consequently worthless.

 

I'm certainly not sneering. You're correct, most people feared for Leonards safety. The fact that Leonard made it to the final bell was remarkable, let alone making it such a close fight. Smoke & mirrors is how Leonard himself described his revised strategy. The initial strategy was for him to stand & trade with Hagler, until a week or so before the fight when he was knocked down & nearly out by a sparring partner.

The new strategy...in his own words...was to stick & move, mess him around, act like your winning the fight even if you're not i.e raising your arms, stealing rounds by flurrying in the last seconds....smoke & mirrors.

In Haglers camp there were concerns about just how much he had left in the tank because apparently after watching Hagler attempting to jump rope Bob Arum turned to someone & said "He can still fight, right?" Then came the fight, & Hagler looked abysmal. Maybe not shot to ****, he still had a cast iron jaw, but he was painfully slow, & Leonard admitted that after seeing the Mugabi fight, & how slow Hagler was now, & how much he was missing by, that's when he decided he wanted to fight Hagler.

But yes you are correct, nobody gave Leonard a prayer, even against an old Hagler.

 

Hagler's decline didn't go unnoticed at the time though. Jimmy Jacobs, usually a shrewd observer, picked Mugabi to beat Hagler based on Hagler's diminished skills. It didn't go unnoticed by Leonard either. He was at ringside for Hagler-Sibson and afterwards said something to the effect of "I'm glad I retired. I didn't know Marvin could box like that." While watching Hagler-Mugabi he noticed how slow and hittable Hagler had become and decided Hagler was ready to be picked off.

Of course no one thought it was a complete set-up for Leonard or that everyone expected him to win. I do however take issue with the idea that Leonard was somehow battling enormous odds against Hagler when the timing and circumstances of the fight actually narrowed them quite a lot.

 

:thumbsup Spot on.

 

I'll have to disagree with you about the proper odds and by inference the magnitude of the upset, but that argument has been done to death here a million times.