Sugar Ray Leonard was Better than Sugar Ray Robinson

Good post, but I don't entirely agree. Robinson was never a physically strong fighter, many said it was his one true weakness, and it showed not only against Middleweights, but against Welterweights as well. It wasn't just LaMotta, Fullmer and Abrams, it was also Zivic, Servo and Basilio. All of them had the same base in the style they used against Robinson, core strength, pressure, and low center of gravity. Duran had and used these in spades, and Leonard was by no mean weaker than Robinson, yet Duran manhandled him. I doubt Duran was as strong as LaMotta, but he would most definitely be more than strong enough for Robinson, I don't think there's any argument to the contrary, really.

And as electrifying as Robinson's offense was, his defense wasn't on the same level. He had a good defense, in fact I'd say he did a good job of being defensively responsible most of the time, but he got hit a lot. His legs were his primary method of defense, he did use actual defensive techniques, but they were clearly secondary. Leonard's movement was every bit as good as Robinson's, but it took 2 rounds for Duran to wobble him. I'd say Leonard's in-fighting was just flat out better than Robinson's, who while not shying away from it, never proved to be adept with it. That in-fighting is 1/3 reasons he proceeded to survive the fight and do better than he did in rounds 2-4, the others being the rest of his offense, which I agree, wasn't as good as Robinson's, and his chin, which proved to be just as good as Robinson's, let us not forget how well Leonard took that right hand from Hearns that dropped Cuevas like a fly, and still got hurt multiple times by Duran. Robinson would get hit frequently here, and he wouldn't like it.

Robinson's method of keeping Duran away is almost exclusively limited to his offense, which is wonderful enough that it is certainly possible. But it would be very difficult against Duran. LaMotta's pressure had success in the first 2 rounds, then Robinson started being clever, throwing some nasty right hooks to LaMotta's body. When LaMotta tried avoiding them, Robinson would use his forearms to direct Jake to his shot. When jabbing, Robinson would make sure to have his head off line to avoid Jake's jab. When Jake would charge in, Robinson would time him perfectly and hit him with killer combinations, or single shots with all of Robinson's being put into them, with 2 particularly nasty right hands to the head in round 4, check left hooks, and obviously the last 3 rounds. LaMotta was a durable as they come, but was still hurt, Duran would be in huge trouble were he to get hit by those shots.

But that's the thing though, those tactics wouldn't work as easily on Duran, he would be hit far less. Duran was a defensive master, and had enough savvy to force Robinson into an in-fight were he to try using his forearms, and would outright just not attack him like LaMotta did. Jake received his worst beatings when he was coming towards him one dimensionally, Duran wouldn't do that. Duran always closed the distance either by turning his offense to defense / defense to offense, and counterpunching, or by changing levels multiple times and rapidly feinting while coming in, LaMotta was actually doing well in the middle rounds when doing the latter, and he didn't have half of Duran's speed, footwork, finesse or savvy. And Robinson would just dig his own grave if he tried jabbing Duran if he is hurt and moving away, Duran punishes pasiveness like no other. Robinson would catch him for sure, it's outright inevitable at some point, Duran was great defensively but he wasn't unhittable, and Robinson's offense is second to none, he had some great set ups and a high offensive minded ring IQ, and would catch Duran with something unexpected, a good amount of times. Robinson had a tendancy to go to the body when someone tried closing the distance by also going to the body, which would trouble Duran. Obviously, Duran wouldn't take these shots better than LaMotta did, or as well as he did Leonard's. But it would be a very daunting task for Robinson. Duran could very well wins this, no less then Robinson would, I firmly believe that to be the case, imo.

Sorry about the length though, the nuance of this match up is just insane, so it was a neccessary evil.

 

Robinsons fights against those guys were 4-5 years before he held the title. He was like 20-21yo and still filling out, still growing. The point for me is Robinson had enormous power and great speed, much like Hearns and this is a big detriment to Duran as he's going to paying taxes chasing his favored real estate.

Robinson has a number of wins vs high level brawling mauling fighters even at 160 so i am not picturing Duran ragdolling him by any means.

His fists as well as his legs were his primary defense. His defense wasn't the same level because he was offensively orientated. He wanted to utilize that big power, slashing speed, the ability to put blinding combinations together. I'm not completely sold on SRL being better inside than the original either.

Leonard never took the same right hands as Cuevas because Hearns couldn't get the same perfectly clean shots on him. He didn't until their rematch many years later. Duran however did land his best shots on Leonard, that's the difference. There's not a chance on planet earth that duran hits harder or as hard as Hearns. He was simply getting in on Leonard and catching him flush at times, including with the odd punch he didn't see coming. He was on top of Hearns bombs that wee coming from a lot further away than Roberto's.

Excellent points my man.

Duran's far smaller than LaMotta and isn't going to be as physical. Duran is more skilled, yes. I favor Robinson by a close but clear margin in a very competitive fight personally.

It's all good, you made some great points and it was a very interesting read. It's great to see you very active and posting plenty lately. You really know your stuff and the board is richer for it. Hope i haven't come off blunt or dismissive above but my days of posting massive big posts and going back and forth for days are probably behind me hahaha.

 

Yes, and his run after Leonard stopped on another ATG in Hagler. No shame in that. There are some that think he wasn't ever the same after that, but the wallop he took from Barkley would be hard for most to survive, though. And in any case you'd be very hard pressed indeed to find 6'1 monsters like Barkley at WW in the same day weigh-in era. Even today he'd be an absolutely huge WW if he could squeeze in.

 

Robinson's offense is always to be feared, for certain, the left hook that KO'd Fullmer would finish Duran the same way Hearns' right hand did. But I don't think it's quite a Duran-Hearns situation, Hearns' sheer length played a big part against Duran, he had a 12 inch reach advantage on Duran, that is literally double the reach advantage Robinson wound enjoy against him, it was mad. Just imagine the sheer vitriol the general forum would have produced had such a case happened to Loma.

Oh yeah, I'm not saying he would radgoll him, but I think he would clearly outmuscle him and push him hard on the inside. No one managed to outright ragdoll Robinson at his best.

Agreed.

I've had some great posters to learn from. McGrain, George, Grey, Saintpat, you, and more, this place can be a gem when we're not repeating the same old threads again and again.

I miss Mendoza sometimes, he was terrible, but damn it if he didn't bring some color. The brutal beatdowns he received here from multiple posters is the forum at its best. Maybe him coming back would urge you to awaken the beast inside once more. I never had my shot against him, it would be very nice.

 

Fair, very fair......and funny

Yeah it's a great place to be, totally agree. At least we aren't here debating in yet another x vs y heavyweight thread hahaha

Yeah that's the only thing just about anyone would miss - the brutal beatdowns which were hilarious as he obnoxiously pretended he had the upper hand, pretending all the facts against him just didn't exist.

It would sure get mcvey's juices running hahaha.....but he was cuffed i think. I actually stopped giving him oxygen as it just got too repetitive and was like taking corn from a blind c0ckatoo.

mcvey and doza share hostilities over at boxing scene pretty much daily i think......with a fair bit of room to move. Every month or two i pop over there for 30 minutes or so and check what's doing.

 

I certainty don't mind anyone building a case for Ray Leonard as I feel he may have been the best pound for pound fighter of the second half of the 20th Century but to build it by trivializing Robinson is a reach and a bit radical ... to say there is a huge advantage in hand or foot speed is incorrect. To say Leonard was better at infighting the same. Beating a higher range of styles ? Ray Robinson went 129 - 1 -2 over the first twelve years of his career ... Leonard had a total of forty fights ... think about your claims ... What is not questionable is power or toughness ... Robinson may have been the greatest two handed puncher of all time with one of the greatest chins of all time ... twenty five years , fighting till 46 and never knocked out (heat exhaustion aside) ... that's astonishing ... H2H, prime for prime anything is possible and for sure it would be very competitive .. that's my take ..

 

Fair Analysis

 

I couldn't have said it better, excellent. A sharp shooter, ace.