Sugar Ray Robinson- A Great. But THE GREATEST????

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by joecaldragon, Aug 1, 2008.


Page 4 of 9
  1. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    112,986
    48,067
    Mar 21, 2007

    The case for ranking Duran above Greb is a slim one my friend.
     
    McGrain, Aug 2, 2008
    McGrain, Aug 2, 2008
    #46
  2. Robbi

    Robbi Marvelous Full Member

    15,217
    170
    Jul 23, 2004
    All three judges went for Hagler.
     
    Robbi, Aug 2, 2008
    Robbi, Aug 2, 2008
    #47
  3. Mantequilla

    Mantequilla Boxing Addict Full Member

    4,964
    78
    Aug 26, 2004
    Unless you just think he was better.

    It's not an exact science after all.
     
    Mantequilla, Aug 2, 2008
    Mantequilla, Aug 2, 2008
    #48
  4. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

    10,774
    312
    Dec 12, 2005
    Again, we can take a snapshot of anyone and diminish them. I myself have absolutely confirmed and criticized Robinson's ducking Burley -I have no doubt. Gainsford told this to Burley. Robinson effectively froze Burley out of a shot. However, when you consider risk and reward, it simply made good business sense. He was no Reluctant Roy, and Power Puncher is punching phantoms when he makes any comparison between Robinson and Jones in terms of ducking/avoiding/fighting lesser threats.

    Last time I checked, Robinson faced 10 hall of famers.

    I have forgiven Robinson, and you should too. Why? Because when you consider his record and the challenges he did face over a 25 year career, this stain is not enough to put anyone else over him. Hell, fighting the incredibly dangerous Gavilan twice soothes me.

    Now let's spotlight some of the problems with the other three you mention:

    1. Langford. Records back then were suspect to begin with. There is scant film to objectively analyze him. Langford also had 47 losses and 45 draws. He was stopped in '23 by a guy named Clem Johnson who was 4-11. He lost to Jack Thompson who was 13-10 in '20 and Jim Barry who was 9-3 in 1907. You got too many newspaper decisions and pre-arranged draws for objective analysis.

    2. Greb. No film. Woefully bloated record.

    3. Armstrong. A pretty short prime. And... guess what... he ducked Burley at least as much as Robinson did! Oh, and Robinson beat him.
     
    Stonehands89, Aug 2, 2008
    Stonehands89, Aug 2, 2008
    #49
  5. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

    10,774
    312
    Dec 12, 2005
    See my response to McGrain.

    ....you continue with a selective presentation that is rooted in clear bias. And the glorification of Mayweather and Jones -as well as the excuses you want to make for Jones really cripple your argument.
     
    Stonehands89, Aug 2, 2008
    Stonehands89, Aug 2, 2008
    #50
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    112,986
    48,067
    Mar 21, 2007
    So far, so reasonable - what if I said to you that I considered Burley the second best WW ever to fight? Would you think that was totally unreasonable?

    If not - if you think it is possible then you have a situation where Louis and Ali shared an era and Louis ran scared - because of "business sense".

    None of us would ever forgive him. Would we?

    Now let's spotlight some of the problems with the other three you mention:

    So you must either discount him from the argument, prove that this avoided black fighter was liable to benifit from bias amongst record keepers and journalists or acknowledge that wins are as likely to be burried as losses and treat the man's record with respect.

    But enough to get some idea of what he was about.

    I wonder how Robinson's loss record would compare if he fought blind for pennies rather than live with nothing?

    You seem to be treating Clem's record with real respect? That is, you suspect these numbers are accurate?

    Regardless, it seems odd that you would put any real stock in this past-prime (And past-20.20 vision) result, especially as Sam outpointed old Clem a couple of years earlier. Clem was 1-5 then ;)

    I actually think Armstrong's duck was more blatant. Certainly there were more straight-forward lies told.
     
    McGrain, Aug 2, 2008
    McGrain, Aug 2, 2008
    #51
  7. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

    42,723
    269
    Jul 22, 2004
    None as challenging as:

    Charles Burley
    Cocoa Kid
    Holman Williams
    Lloyd Marshall
    Moore
    Charles
     
    PowerPuncher, Aug 2, 2008
    PowerPuncher, Aug 2, 2008
    #52
  8. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

    42,723
    269
    Jul 22, 2004
    Who did jones/Mayweather avoid in the league of: Charles Burley
    Cocoa Kid
    Holman Williams
    Lloyd Marshall
    Moore
    Charles
     
    PowerPuncher, Aug 2, 2008
    PowerPuncher, Aug 2, 2008
    #53
  9. Sonny Carson

    Sonny Carson Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,995
    5
    Jan 7, 2007
    The article doesn't how Sugar Ray Robinson was ducked as a welterweight before he won the title.
     
    Sonny Carson, Aug 2, 2008
    Sonny Carson, Aug 2, 2008
    #54
  10. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    112,986
    48,067
    Mar 21, 2007
    True, but Williams was all but washed up by the time Robinson could have been seriously expected to take him on.

    And the only way the Moore fight could have happened was at 175. Perhaps not reasonable to expect that?

    Charles, too.
     
    McGrain, Aug 2, 2008
    McGrain, Aug 2, 2008
    #55
  11. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

    10,774
    312
    Dec 12, 2005
    Gavilan is my choice for the second best WW ever to fight. And he's 0-2 against the best WW ever to fight.

    And I would forgive Louis had he ducked Ali, if he had almost 100 fights and if he had defeated say Holyfield, Liston, and Tunney.

    I think you may have missed the point of my spotlighting the critiques of Sam, Harry, and Hank. It was only rhetorical -to demonstrate that it is easy to put the shade on them too.

    If we are objective and consider everything in context, all told and all considered, Robinson is just really tough to choose against when it comes to #1.
     
    Stonehands89, Aug 2, 2008
    Stonehands89, Aug 2, 2008
    #56
  12. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

    10,774
    312
    Dec 12, 2005
    This content is protected


    Who's that bum on the left?
     
    Stonehands89, Aug 2, 2008
    Stonehands89, Aug 2, 2008
    #57
  13. OLD FOGEY

    OLD FOGEY Boxing Junkie Full Member

    7,670
    98
    Feb 18, 2006
    Charles is an over-the-top criticism, though. He was always two divisions up from Robinson. Charles was the heavyweight champion when Robinson was the welterweight champion. Moore was never anywhere close to Robinson either. And Marshall was a rated lightheavy, albeit a modern super-middle, when Robinson was a welter.

    You are really asking Robinson to step way up in weight with those three.

    Burley, Williams, and the Cocoa Kid might be more reasonable.
     
    OLD FOGEY, Aug 2, 2008
    OLD FOGEY, Aug 2, 2008
    #58
  14. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    112,986
    48,067
    Mar 21, 2007
    I guess this is where we differ.

    For me, a fighter ducking the best fighter of his generation (bar himself) is a serious issue, one that should be weighed when trying to understand that fighter.

    It's even more serious if that fighter is arguably and reasonably the second best one that ever lived in the division.


    No, I understood - my point is, if you reach where Langford is concerned you tend to come up with handfulls of nothing.

    With Robinson -

    he ducked the fighter with the best chance of testing him.

    Not hard to find.

    I disagree. He's a lock for the top 5, he should always be in the top 2, he is a reasonable choice for #1.

    Personally, I find against Sugar and for The Boston Tar Baby. I don't consider it a contriversial decision, though it was a difficult one.
     
    McGrain, Aug 2, 2008
    McGrain, Aug 2, 2008
    #59
  15. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    112,986
    48,067
    Mar 21, 2007



    Very nice photo.

    I've always thought they kind of looked alike.
     
    McGrain, Aug 2, 2008
    McGrain, Aug 2, 2008
    #60
Page 4 of 9