Sugar Ray Robinson- A Great. But THE GREATEST????

I rate him among the very best combination punchers I've ever seen on film. In terms of composite punching, I think that's where he has a legit case even just from the film we've seen as the best.

Who do I think looks better than a MW Robinson based on the film I've seen, in my opinion and not going by general consensus?

Jones Jr.
Whitaker
Duran
Leonard
Napoles
I really could go on, but I don't want to get too controversial. Stonehands or someone will come in and attempt to tear my post to pieces with logic rather than film evidence to back it up.

Am I sure his best was at Welter? Well, yeah, pretty much. At WW he may well have been the single greatest on film, though I can't see how anyone can conclusively say that with all the boxers that have laced em up. I still rate him #1 all time as an ATG, I'm just saying the Robinson we have on film at MW isn't the single most impressive boxer of all time, though he is very impressive.

As for your last question, because my computer has not been working the past couple days.

 

Who says I dont rate Robinson the best ever? I usually do, I flirt with Duran/Ali/Charles/Pepp for the top spot, even Whitaker/RJJ/Mayweather but I like to fully disect a fighter

Greb/Langford/Armstrong dont take my top spot as I dont believe boxing peaked around these times and I dont find Armstrong to be quite skilled enough or dominant enough to be number 1 frankly.

 

I agree except with the thought that his peak was at Welter. Do we really believe a fighters peak is in their early 20s? A fighters skill and strength level usually peaks later but they lose some stamina/speed along the way. I'm sure Robinson had more physical advantages at 147 and was thus more impressive

IMO the final Lamotta fight may have been his peak or very near to it. Obviously the post-retirement fights were past prime

 

He fought at WW until his mid 20's(around 27 I believe) and everyone who's ever seen him there said he was indeed better at the weight. Therefore I think it's only safe to assume. Same thing with Floyd. He was younger at 130 but FAR better than he has been in recent years, at least in terms of effectiveness.

 

I believe fighters have different primes for different abilities. Floyd had more of an advantage at 130 where he wouldn't need to fight in retreat and potshot as much. His defense has peaked in recent years, Floyd seemed to slow allot above 140 for my money though and his speed looked comparatively pedestrian in his last 3.

 

I somtimes think that you get a little too hung up on the principle of the matter.

Whoever you fail to fight it dose not detract from your record against the guys you did fight.

The fact that Robinson never fought Burley actualy hurts Burleys resume as much as it hurts Robinsons if not more.

 

If fighter A fights the best of his era and fighter B dosn't then in order to rate fighter B higher you must conclude either:

Fighter B fought in an era where the fighters were generaly stronger than fighter A (always a leap of faith, see Ali vs Louis thread).

or.

Fighter B did a hell of a lot better with what he fought than fighter A.

 

I dont worry too much about Robinson's title reigns.

Winning the middleweight titles numerous times just proved he was great at comebacks and rematches as an aging fighter in his second-best division - which is nothing to sneeze at, but not the real substance of his greatness.

The man was avoided by the welterweight champions, or prevented from challenging for the world title due to the world wartime freezing of championship contests, for years while he was seemingly unbeatable against 147 pounders. He could have dethroned Zivic, Cochrane, Servo for sure. He was recognized as great way back in the early 40s.

Whether or not he was THE greatest fighter ever, pound-for-pound, is impossible to say. That's just a label, an opinion, that has been applied to various fighters over the years. Robinson's not unworthy of that label.

 

While reading this post, it sounds like everyone is pretty entrenched with their ideas about how Robinson's career should have unfolded in regards to his not fighting Burley and the Cocoa Kid.
While it's great fun to get caught up in match-ups and hypotheticals (I do...and I love it).
It's easy to sit on your ass in front of a computer and criticize. Boxing is a real life sport...blood is shed, and lives are changed in the ring. Bottom line it's a business...a ****ing brutal business. It's not a comic super hero world, you have to weigh your risks, with your rewards...and you do not concede adavantages unless you are properly compensated for it. Believe me people if it was your ass in the ring, or your fighter, you would become very astute in this profession, or you are 'chewed up...and spit out'.

From The Ring July 1949.

"Sugar Ray Has His Say"

by Ted Carroll

"Ted, go up to Ray Robinson's place of business and tell him that The Ring is willing to print his side of teh story on the many attacks against him. Tell him we'll give him a chance to tell teh public whatever he thinks they should know and let him talk all he wants, if he's willing to do so."
That was my assignment, and up to Harlem I went to get my story. Inside Sugar Ray's Robinson's Harlem Bistro all was noise and revelry as well-wishers celebrated his 28th birthday.The Sugar Baby squirmed his way through the capering, congratulating mob to the freedom of the outer air just as your Ring reporter was about to enter to join in the jubilation and obtain the interview.
After greetings and felicitations had been extended,Robinson, in a talkative mood took off conversationally in defense of recent actions that have made him the most criticized fighter in the ring.
Drawing a deep breath, the Sugar Baby began: "If I am the terrible man everybody says I am,if I go around just making things tough for promoters, tell me, Teddy, why haven't I been suspended by somebody? If I did all teh wrong things peole say, I'd be suspended all the time, but I've never been, and I'm not now.
"You see, here's the story: A fighter is the only man in the world who's not not supposed to be to speak for himself. Why do most fighters end up broke? I'll tell you why. They leave everything to the managers and promoters. Those guys are looking out for themselves, not you!
"As soon as a fighter starts asking questions and speaking up for himself, he becomes a bad fellow. I'm not the only one.
"Look at Tunney. George (Gainsford) tells me everybody hated him when he was fightin'. Today he's got several million bucks. Everybody used to say what swell kids Henry Armstrong and Beau Jack were. Look what happened to them and their money. Well, that's not going to happen to me!
"I've been in Mike Jacob's office and seen him hide from broke fighters, afraid they were going to make a touch. Promoters like Mike, managers like Al Weil, they drive hard bargains. I don't own a newspaper and I can't fight the press. The people only get one side of it.
"Take this thing down In Texas. They wanted me to box an exhibition down there. I said okay, and that I'd box my stablemate, gene Burton, for a certain amount of money. It turns out Texas is a state where Burton is suspended. So the promoters go right ahead and sign Cocoa Kid to box me.
"I tell them if it's Cocoa, the money will have to be different. I signed to box with Burton. The promoters squawk and send out to the papers that I ran out of another contract. People read it and believe it. What can I do? But you notice I wasn't suspended by the NBA, and Texas is an NBA state. Why? Because I didn't agree to meet Cocoa Kid. I'm still willing to box Gene Burton.
"I think I'm the only fighter around who can show where every cent of his money has gone since his very first fight. If you come in my office next door, you can pick out any fight I've had and there is a recordof every quarter I spent out of my purse for that fight. Tell me what other fighter does that.
"Every Negro fighter that ever lived, outside of Harry Wills, wound up broke, I'm not going to make the mistakes they did and act the way they acted."
"Take this television, I set all those promoters on that. "Listen", I told them, "you're getting plenty for this television, but the fighter is the one the people are watching, not you. If you were getting nothing for it, I wouldn't want anything either, but if you get yours, I've got to get mine!"
There's been more phoney stuff printed about me than any other fighter that ever lived. They wrote I got a dishonorable discharge, and I could have been sued for libel. They said I jumped ship, socked an officer, got court-martialed and was put in the guard house. What a lot of junk that was! I joined the Army as a sergeant, so how could all of that have happened?"
"If I was to walk into my barber shop and start telling my barbers how to cut hair, everybody woudl think I was crazy. But everybody in the world tries to to tell a fighter what to do. I don't try to run anybody else's business, but the whole dawgone world tries to tell me how to run mine.
"You'd be surprised at the fighters, white and Negro who come to me to manage them. No kids, but good guys everyone has heard of. i tell them I can't manage anybody, I've got my own fightin' to do. If I was such a bad fellow, would that happen?"
"Maybe people rap me because I'm obligated to nobody and owe nobody a quarter. For years Mike was always trying to lend me money. He'd pull out a checkbook: "How much ya need, Sugar?" "Nothin' doin', Mike," I'd say. "He never got me owin' him anything, and couldn't undestand me.
"Everybody knows what hard money fighting money is. A fighter never has much fun. He's training all the time. Take me, Next week it's up to Greenwood Lake for a month before the Gavilan fight. After that, it's more training for a September fight. While other young fellows are having a good time, fighters are catching hell not only in the ring, but in traing camp. Then how long does he last? And when he's all through, nobody wants to know him.
"I've boxed more benifits thatn any other champin in the ring, but few ever mention that. Tehy call me cheap, but I carry more people around the country with me when I fight than any other fighter around, and it all comes out of my pocket."
At this point, along came Beau Jack to offer greetings and well-wishes.the Beau drifted on and Sugar Ray resumed.
"That's just what I'm talking about.There's a little guy everybody likes. Now tell me what became of the $500,000 he made. He doesn't know. Ask his manager maybe he can tell you!
"I've reached the point where I don't care what anybody thinks or says about me, but one thing I can tell you, I don't think they'll ever have to run benefits for Sugar Ray Robinson!"
So there we have Sugar Ray's side of it. A recent survey in Harlem, NY disclosed that he is one of the wealthiest residents of the vicinity. He owns almost the entire block on the west side of seventh avenue, between 123rd and 124th streets in New York City. In the three apartment houses that he owns, he has three businesses, a bar and grill, a barber shop, and a cleaning establishment.
He owns a private haouse in the Bronx,NY, in which his mother lives. He also owns an apartment house in Cleveland, two high priced automobiles, his training quarters in Greenwood Lake, NY and a house in Detroit.
Maybe he has the right dope after all.

 

utter nonsense, you fool!

Robinson's first 'competitive' fight at about 150lbs (never mind 160lbs) did not come till he fought Artie Levine in november 1946.

you do realise when he was beaten by Lamotta he was outweighed by a bout 15lbs

 

"Solved" was an overstatement, what was meant is that Holman and a very few others had the ability to handle Burley's bizarre, serpentine style.

The '43 decision was the fault of the ref, who declared it an NC in round 10. Burley was missing and clinching alot while Williams was working the body. Holman was stunned more than once however. The crowd, by one report, did not disapprove, and I take it that the problem was that the fighters were very familiar with one another and were cautious.

...what the hell is that avatar?

 

Be warned. If you put Duran, Ali, or Whitaker at the top spot, you'll have a war you won't believe.

If you put Mayweather or Jones at the top spot, I'll get up an ESB classic mob and hang your dog, skin your cat, and burn your house down.