Sugar Ray Robinson v Marvin Hagler Prime vs Prime

I dont know why anyone would say this. Hagler turned in enough sub par performances against guys he was considerable favorite over to leave in doubt his H2H standing against other all time greats.

 

And your point is?? Even in these so called sub par performances he did enough to win while champion.

 

He fought Monroe in '77 a full three years before he won the title. Ignoring facts? You have done that plenty in this thread. Saying Mugabi wasn't one of hardest punching Middleweights. Implying Hagler was ****ping his pants against Duran. Making excuses for Robinson against Turpin. Then, calling others biased on here when you are clearly biased yourself.

 

Just me or would this be REALLY violent and bloody?

I don't mean a wild melee like Hagler vs. Hearns - but just two guys with amazing chins slinging big-time middleweight power at each other with superb technique, enough on either side to quite regularly bypass the other man's excellent defense?

I can't see either of them coming out from this without resembling dog meat, let alone unscathed.

 

Wait, so your saying I am making up the excuse for Robinson? I made that up? Me? Why dont you go read a ****ing newspaper from that era. Or even some of the biased British press that still admitted Robinson was ***ged out in that fight.

Hagler himself admitted he was awed by Duran and the magnitude of the event. I didnt make that **** up.

I also said that Hagler was pre prime for Monroe, go back and re-read my post.

As for Mugabi I couldnt care less what his KO ratio was who exactly did he knockout? Nobody. I dont doubt the guy hit hard but to call him one of the hardest hitters in one of the deepest divisions ever based on his weak record is silly. Besides, it takes more than a punch to excel and Mugabi was limited as his career proved. Mugabi was brought up because someone said Robinson never fought anyone like Mugabi. A guy with padded KO record who never beat anyone of note? Yeah, I think Robinson fought plenty of guys as good or better than Mugabi in the power department.

That ascertion alone is laughable. I would ask if Hagler ever fought anyone like Robinson. The closest he came (Leonard who was past his prime, coming off a long layoff, and fighting above his best weight... and dont give me that **** about Hagler being past his best because he had way less going against him than Leonard) he lost. Ive never met anyone that thought Leonard was better than SRR. Robinson would beat Hagler.

 

I think this kinds of sums it up. SRR was better than SRL and was 130 2-2 after the Rocky Graziano fight and deep in fighting boxing masters as well as punchers he was 31 year old, he fought on for another 13 years (with a 3 year break after Maxim) and won the middleweight title a couple of times in that 13 years.

Hagler would have been formidable but the Duran fight and the Leonard fight kind of swing me towards a clean win for the Sugar-man prime to prime

 

C'mon Steve, you know the sport & what I'm saying here...the key word I'm taking issue with is "easily".

 

Hagler on points.Robinson may be the greatest welter at his peak but he'd still have to give 10lbs away to a much stronger box-fighter who is also predominantly a southpaw which Robbie didn't come across to often.
So, Leonard beat hagler when the marvelous one was well past his best ?? Its like saying Robinson got put on his **** and given a boxing lesson by joey archer

 

Just because Greb is great...doesn't mean Hagler can't be great as well...

 

Not a chance.even the peak 1951 leamington licker wouldn't beat hagler.the post 54' licker was totally shot and should have been retired.

 

At Robinson's level of peak class, I dismiss the weight issue.

As a lightish welterweight who was a recent amateur featherweight that began his punch for pay career as a lightweight (think Randy Shields for a height and weight comparison), he took four of five from former amateur Diamond Belt LHW IBHOFer LaMotta. Reportedly, he had been ill when he came in at 144-1/2 for his one defeat against the 160-1/2 Jake. (LaMotta came in at 30-5-2, while SRR was 40-0-0. A quick preliminary count of their records also shows that Jake had nearly 100 more rounds of professional competition than Ray when LaMotta beat him to even their nascent rivalry, and had gone the ten round limit twice as many times as Robinson, so the factor of experience may have aided Jake here as well. Still, Ray won their first match handily.)

Hagler was defeated by mothballed former WW SRL. He was losing after 13 rounds against ATG LW Duran. Bad cut against former WW Hearns did put him in peril.

Robby was still the WW Champion when he knocked out Bobo Olson for the first time in 12 rounds for the Pennsylvania version of the world mw title just two weeks before his televised match against Bobby D

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ykes. Bobo was a pretty durable customer until Archie Moore got through with him. SRR-Olson I was Bobo's only stoppage defeat in his first 75 bouts, and he wouldn't get stopped again until Moore five years later. Joe Rein told me this was the last of Ray four peak performances in John Garfield's opinion, making Robinson-D

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ykes from Chicago an especially valuable historical document, and Robinson-Olson I in Philadelphia possibly the most important match of Ray's we don't have known extant footage of.

Marv could be beaten by smaller guys moving up who were lesser challengers than SRR at his WW peak. Yes, I believe Ray at his very best, even under 147, can decision Hagler at Marv's best weight. Robby would still have advantages in height, foot speed and mobility. Marcos Geraldo gave Hagler very serious headaches with his mobility and combinations early, and there were many whispers that the Mexican MW Champion should have been awarded the decision by compiling an early insurmountable lead by confusing Marv into constant switch hitting through the early stages with superior ring generalship while Marcos successfully imposed his orthodox clockwise circling preference.

Like Geraldo, Robinson was 5'11, although he didn't have quite the reach Marcos had. Ray had far more than enough else over Geraldo to compensate for that, including the ability to punch with leverage from both sides.

Steve Compton doesn't suffer fools gladly, doesn't mince words, is no diplomat, and speaks his mind in often abrasive fashion. He's also one of the greatest boxing historians alive. He and I have often clashed (me on different forums under different pseudonyms), but my respect for his knowledge and opinions is absolute even in our frequent disagreements, and he has changed my opinions over the years on many, many boxing related subjects. (I often learn more from our disagreements than I do when we are more usually in synch. Nor will praising him soften his responses or alter his consistency. He has sufficient integrity that flattery gets you nowhere with him, an immunity to manipulation making him safer to applaud than most.)

 

I have often posted that the prime WW Ray Robinson was the greatest fighter I ever saw ringside by far. And the past peak MW Robinson who I watched stop Randy Turpin at the Polo Grounds was as great as a fighter can get. It is difficult to compare fighters of different era's in a fantasy fight, but in choosing the winner between the Ray Robinson of the Bobo Olson and Randy Turpin bout #2, and Marvin Hagler, one fight haunts me and puts me in Ray Robinson beating Hagler. I cannot envision a tough cut prone taker like Vito Antuofermo ,brave that he was, lasting 15 rounds with the Ray Robinson who
flattened a Bobo Olson 3 times, a tough hombre Gene Fullmer, and the still formidable Randy Turpin #2... One other thing. Remember that Hagler had but 67 bouts in his career, whilst Robinson who had 3 times more than Hagler
did and Ray was still formidable at about 150 bouts. So I choose Robinson to
outbox Marvin Hagler both at their bests...

 

Nobody else agree this might end on cuts/swelling/other superficial damage?

I can't see this going more than a few rounds without becoming two-way carnage.

Not that either had crepe-paper skin (they didn't) - but just the amount of well-schooled leather in that crossfire would push the boundaries...and I don't see either man abandoning his post to box on the outside, in this.

On the rare occasion either was troubled by cuts (Hagler with Hearns and Robinson with Turpin) it only galvanized them and engendered more intense violence from them. If they started to slice up each other in the middle of the ring it would become a total bloodbath.

No?

 

i think the feeling out process would take a good few rounds but this is far more possible than some of the strange posts in this thread.