Sugar Ray Robinson v Marvin Hagler Prime vs Prime

Apart from Julio César Chávez who very nearly matched that feat.

 

Burt didn't express how close Robby got to 132-0-0 entering Turpin I. The second match with LaMotta was a clear defeat for Ray, but again, he was outweighed by 16 pounds and may have been hampered by illness. Basora outweighed him by five in their May 1945 draw, but SRR crushed out Jose with four KDs followed by a count-out in just 55 seconds at their rematch in their August 1950 MW rematch, barely two weeks after Robby's championship distance WW finale carrying of Fusari.

Henry Brimm fought the other draw with Ray in their February 1949 rematch on Brimm's adopted Buffalo turf, partially redeeming himself for a clear UD loss to the Sugarman at the same Memorial Coliseum a year earlier. (The month after Brimm's draw with Ray, Henry would go down to NYC in his very next bout to draw with fellow Puerto Rico native Basora at Jose's adopted home territory. Yeah, I'd like to see today's competitors going once or twice a month or more.

Like Burt's said repeatedly over the years, technologically advanced training, carefully planned and crafted strategy and conditioning science does not compensate for frequency of competition and the rapid accumulation of practical experience. That was never any substitute for steady training and a busy schedule. Horse racing was one of the big three spectator sports in the USA, along with baseball and boxing. Like racehorse thoroughbreds, boxers needed to compete into shape, and remain active to maintain competitive sharpness.

Recreational joggers and runners experience this every spring in wintry climates. They might continue running indoors on treadmills and the like, but no matter how disciplined they are through the frozen months on indoor equipment, they usually discover themselves getting badly winded almost instantly the first time they return outdoors for their first run after the winter, and take a while to regain full outdoor aerobic capacity so they no longer get winded and suffer from "stitches" in their sides. I no longer know just how valuable a fitness regimen like that is to longevity, health and quality of life though. Considering the way Burt's going, he might just past the century mark Max Schmeling fell just short of. (Rumor has it that Burt's still got this thing for older women though, and has his sights set on Doris Day or Betty White. Luise Ranier didn't quite last long enough to rob Burt from his cradle though.)

Mr. Bienstock, since I've been replying to your previous post here (and kidding with you a bit in the process), I'd like to know your opinion of Robinson's televised performance against D

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ykes from Chicago Stadium preserved on kinescope 64 years ago, having seen SRR live on multiple occasions. It took place less than two weeks after Ray's 12th round knockout of Bobo Olson in their first bout at Philadephia, which Joe Rein told me was the fourth, last, and longest of Robby's peak performances that JG was aware of. (The 55 second blowout of Jose Basora in their Scranton rematch was one of the other three peaks cited by Joe, so two of these four events were actually NOT welterweight bouts, but defenses of the Pennsylvania State World Middleweight Title while Ray held the World Welterweight Championship. This raises the question that perhaps he was actually at full strength and power during his WW peak when actually coming in above 147. I might need sodium pentothal or regression by a good clinical hypnotist to recall the other two instances cited by johngarfield, as I can't remember them offhand, or find the post where he told me this.)

 

Cheers.

Yeah, once it reaches a boil...

 

With the help of his manager...

 

A, A long question you have posed me deserves a short answer
by me if I ever have a shot at the century mark... T'aint fun
getting my age and fighting my nemesis Art Ritis for sure.
I still have the yen to chase women though. Last week I
pursued an attractive woman who passed by my house,chasing her for about 3 blocks til I finally caught up to her, but
unfortunately I forgot WHY ?
A, as to your question I did watch the first bout between Ray Robinson and Bobby ****s from Chicago in 1950 on our small tv set along with many many others. I recall the fight as a well deserved victory for Ray Robinson over the tall Bobby ****s from Tampa, Florida. Ray Robinson at the age of 29 was still in his prime, and that year I believe Ray had about 20 or so bouts.
I cannot give you more details from that bout but Robinson was still a force of nature...Speaking of Ray Robinson, I might be the
only guy who shook hands with Robinson BEFORE he turned pro
in 1939-40, and after he retired in 1966-67...Ah, to recapture the fountain of youth...Cheers A...

 

Thanks Burt. Yeah, Art Ritis is a real mysterious genetic roll of the dice. I've known girls in their mid teens who were really screwed up with it, my kid brother's hand have been horribly gnarled with arthritis since he was in his 20s, then I've had relatives in their 90s who had no problems with it whatever. Figuring out and curing this thing is an automatic Nobel Prize.

What do you consider Robinson's best performance we do have professional footage of that you have seen? (Docusen in 1948, Riccio and Freddie Flores I in 1946 were shot from ringside with shaky hand held cameras, unlike Robby's professionally recorded bouts with Angott, Fusari and D

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ykes. We're kind of lucky with SRR we even have these. It seems Ralph Walton might be the only footage we have of a pre plane crash Willie Pep. Nice to have it, but man, I sure wish we had Pep-Bartolo III where Willie takes Sal down for the count in 12 by fracturing his jaw to become the undisputed FW Champion. (As a postwar fight at MSG, I'd have expected this one to be filmed.)

For everybody else who hasn't seen it, here's the entirety of Robinson-D

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ykes from Chicago (also readily available in divided segments online for anybody who has problems with the audio of the broadcast here):

[yt]WGQIbMxSMqY[/yt]

 

I had seen Ray Robinson fight a number of times ringside as a welterweight as per when he "carried" his aging idol Henry Armstrong, never opening up on Armstrong nor wishing to hurt him. But one fight I and my dad saw in which I and the crowd at old MSG watched in awe when Robinson fought a tough
tattooed Californian named Jimmy McDaniels who a few weeks before upset a new sensational welterweight prospect named Aaron Perry also at MSG. A tough body puncher, McDaniels tore into young Robinson in the first round and roughed up SRR who was content to tie up his opponent so casually. Well in the 2nd rd
Robby coming out of a clinch opened up on his opponent with
an amazing blur of combination punching that hit the unconscious McDaniels who was unable to hit the canvas til
the referee pulled Robinson away, enabling McDaniels to
fall face first on the canvas...We in the crowd knew then we had seen the perfect fighter that night...I cannot picture any welterweight ever beating the SRR of that night so long ago...
McDaniels

 

Yeah his manager got in the ring with him and helped him fight.....

 

and the judges. Chavez was Don King and the WBC's meal ticket. He was great in his prime but the scoring in the Whitaker fight and first Randall fight were very questionable. Without the knockdown Randall would have only had a draw.

 

you're being too selective in assessing Hagler. no one's seen hagler Finnegan for themselves and he did beat him both times, the second time, worse and two rounds less time

Duran wasnt coasting the final two rounds, he was fatigued and gave the same showing 3 years later vs Simms, hagler's brother. Simms isnt all that great and was only ten rounds and Duran petered out. I told you guys, Duran carries too much weight each time he moves up

as for hagler avoiding boxers his whole career, like who? Whom did Hagler avoid at his weight that was a boxer? what do you mean by "boxers"?

I think this is a misnomer that is casually thrown around and those of us who arent quick enough to question it, let it slip by

ALL of Hagler's opponents could box

to say that hagler never faced a puncher the caliber of Robinson, well THAT is just a joke! You clearly dont know what you're talking about

because if Robinson was as you just described him, we'd see more KOs and less W 15's & L 15s

all you have to go by is the lucky KO of Fullmer in that one fight while Hagler MANY MORE

so i realilty, it's Hagler who is even MORE dangerous. and don't care what anyone says, if Hagler hits him clean, and he will, Robbie is going to the floor.

 

Marvellous Marvin was my favorite all time boxer,but there's no way he could beat Sugar Ray.Too skilled,too fast,just too damned good.

 

He was 87-0 before facing Whitaker, not a shabby record at all....

 

no, Robinson does not have reach. hagler had a 75 inch reach. Speed, the same. Defense goes to Hagler. Chin, also Hagler. Power with both hands Robinson. Poise? that's fine for ballet but in fighting it makes for filler that would have no effect on the outcome so I threw it out. Height: irrelevant. Skill: Hagler beat more varied types of opposition that Robinson. that translates into superior skill for Hagler

because in order to outdo more opponents that must mean you are the more versatile of the two. and in Hagler, Robinson is against a left hander of which he hasnt had the experience of fighting many while Hagler fights right handers most of the time.

I also see no reason why Robinson should be reputed to be the "smarter" fighter