Sugar Ray Robinson v Marvin Hagler Prime vs Prime

we're talking PRIME Marvin, not at the end of his career Marvin. people in Robbies corner dont want to aknowledge this so they can say "if you fight him smart, you can outbox him"

if this were true, leonard- Hagler wouldve been made in 1982 which was during Marv's prime

Micheal Spinks pulled off an upset win over a over the hill Larry Holmes too. never fought at heavyweight and outpointed him. Mike fought a good fight, a smart fight, like Leonard, but Larry was struggling, and getting gift decisions over Witherspoon & WIlliams. he was done and fighters like Larry & marvin are vulnerable to upset losses. it means they're shot

 

Oh rly? So guys like Marvin and Holmes are unbeatable unless they arent in their prime? Lol. Whatever:roll:

 

look at the evidence. at the top of their game, who took them down? Nobody

Larry had a sudden and dramatic decline after the Cobb fight which we all saw his first fight of 1983 vs Rodriguez and same goes for Hagler in the Mugabi fight.

 

They both fought in weak eras which could have something do with their dominance and neither one looked unbeatable against the A. List fighters they fought, (its arguable that Holmes even fought an A. list fighter in his prime). Taking that into account and then matching Hagler with a guy many consider the greatest fighter in history, who just happens to have the style and physical tools that would drive Hagler nuts and its a no brainer that he has an uphill battle.

 

:happy:happy:happy


:goodBurt, you just pinpointed a massive eyewitness contribution to the historic record! (Surprised though that you neglected to mention or perhaps forgot who "the referee" that pulled Robinson away was though, unless he was so inconspicuously competent as a referee that people actually forgot and overlooked who he was during the action.):

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Sugar_Ray_Robinson_vs._Jimmy_McDaniels

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...9&dq=sugar+ray+robinson+jimmy+mcdaniels&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...3&dq=sugar+ray+robinson+jimmy+mcdaniels&hl=en

Jimmy McDaniels was no tanker. This was a guy with extremely serious opposition on his resume, including HOFers, P4P ATGs, and at least 40 completed rounds of Murderer's Row experience behind him when SRR did this to McDaniels in front of Burt and his Dad. Look at who else he had on his record prior to SRR!

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=009617&cat=boxer

Considering who he had previously taken on, and how many rounds he'd gone with most of them, the praise he lavishes on Ray afterwards is truly stunning.

Once again, Burt at his very best, giving us something available from nobody else. (Amazing recollection from 75 years ago this June.)

 

Thanks A for posting info on Jimmy McDaniels who was the first
tattooed fighter I had seen up to that time [1945].Damn that was 70 years ago, but I had plum forgot the referee was the
Ray Robinson lightweight of his day Benny Leonard. Two years
later in 1947, Benny Leonard suffered a heart attack while refereeing bouts in St Nick Arena.
I, with my dad had seen Benny Leonard referee many times in the New York area, so seeing him referee the Robinson/McDaniels bout was not unusual, but my dad saw Leonard train many times as they both came from the same neighborhood...Incidentally a, I didn't mean to imply that the referee Leonard was ****y in stopping the bout too late, but Robinson exploded punches so fast and deadly that McDaniels was "out on his feet" immediately but Robby's deadly flurry
kept Jimmy McDaniels on his feet still he dropped face first.
The difference between a Ray Leonard and Ray Robinson was
as the late great John Garfield posted, Robinson was a cold stone killer on the attack...His "ego" to be the "greatest" was unparalleled...

 

Nope.

Ray struggled with some who couldn't. Which is worse? :think

Revisionism.

You're telling me the white guy, the Irish-English fellow, got screwed not once but twice in the Boston Garden, against a black guy, in the 1970's, with an Irish-Bostonian ref the first time? If there was any way to spin it that he was cut from a butt and could go to a technical decision, you don't think he would've been given the opportunity in that climate?

Finnegan was competitive the first time, yes, and the headbutt cut was the last straw for his corner, but Hagler already had opened the rest of his several cuts in aggregate with punches.

Please show me where anybody in the world believes Finnegan "boxed rings around Hagler" in the rematch? That was a whitewash, and proved the first occasion no fluke as Finn's skin just couldn't hold up to Hagler's attack.

1) That's Ray Leonard you're talking about. He is a consensus ATG.

2) Hagler was out eleven months beforehand as well, and had fought once each in the preceding couple of years, and was older than Leonard. (and had a host of concessional disadvantages that we don't even need to get into, well documented as they are)

3) No, he didn't. Hagler nicked that. Leonard running and closing rounds with a flourish to steal them with late window-dressing isn't "boxing rings around" someone.

1) That's Roberto Duran you're talking about. He is a consensus ATG.

2) That is no more Hagler's fault than it was Trinidad's when De la Hoya did the same thing...or countless other examples throughout history.

3) Narrowest of decisions? There was a two point cushion on the card of an official judge and many at press row had three or even five point cushions. (AP, LA Times, etc)

4) Duran put up a heck of a fight all things considered but lost fair and square to a fellow ATG.

atsch Yeah, he was just a more powerful/effective Cavemen Lee, huh?

Nothing scientific about Hagler whatsoever, no skill? That's your story?

Sugar Ray Seales - not a boxer? I'm pretty sure he won an Olympic gold medal. Hagler managed to outbox him over ten, and then busted his face up with accurate punches and drew with him in Seales' backyard...and obliterated him in their rubber match years later.

Boogaloo Watts - not a boxer? I'm pretty sure he was considered a fine one. Yes, he beat the chrysalis Hagler but once he emerged from the pupa Hagler destroyed him with ease.

Willie Monroe - not a boxer? I'm pretty sure he was considered another fine one. Long, slick, hard to pin down, great quick jab, liberal use of feints. Trained by Eddie Futch. Like Watts, beat Hagler early on but suffered his revenge twice as Hagler blossomed into his prime.

Cyclone Hart - not a boxer? Your first instinct may be to say no because he was known for his power in his L-H, but he was really a well-rounded boxer-puncher (at his best, which he admittedly wasn't always), not some one-trick pony. He was able to outbox Seales pretty widely himself - as well as, for what that's worth, a 32-year-old but still pugnacious Fullmer. Hagler pitched a shutout in Hart's own hometown before making him quit.

Alan Minter - not a boxer? He certainly wasn't a puncher, was he? Yet he climbed the mountain somehow. I'm going to hazard a guess it was because the lad could box a bit. He did win an Olympic bronze medal, after all. Very good boxer on the backfoot. Didn't help against Hagler. Minter got mangled.

Fully Obel - not a boxer? I'd call him a boxer-puncher. Top contender, sharp hitter, could be elusive when he wanted to but Hagler found him plenty in both of their meetings.

Roberto Duran - not a boxer? (covered above)

Tommy Hearns - not a boxer? Every advantage you could ask for, including perceived boxing skill, and none of it saved his bacon. I'll leave it at that.

Sugar Ray Leonard - not a boxer? (covered above)


I won't insult anybody's intelligence by stretching the definition of "boxer" to include the likes of Hamsho (swarming slugger), Sibson (speedster), Antuofermo (pressure fighter), Roldán (pure rhinoceros), or Mugabi (unorthodox trap fighter) - but that is still no shortage of world class opponents who could absolutely box well in the conventional sense. And that doesn't even include "boxers" at the outer fringes of contention that simply weren't up on that level but still weren't tomato cans, guys like Sugar Ray Phillips and Mike Colbert whose only success in the ring came from being decent "boxers" (as they weren't particularly resilient, or powerful).

Hell, nine world class boxers faced in a career would be considered a lot even in Robinson's day.

Oh boy. I'm not saying you're wrong on any of those counts, but could you possibly be romanticizing and wearing your bias on your sleeve any more? :roll:

Yet lesser men did?

YOU CAN INVERT THAT STATEMENT. :deal

You're right, Leonard did not do that. He wasn't even close to doing that; in fact Hagler was in hot pursuit of him. What are you even talking about?

Well this flawed comparison goes back to your fallacious premise that Hagler was simply a "rough tough brawler".

Hagler was, himself, loathe though you may be to admit it, a boxer, a better one than Fullmer at that, and could probably out-brawl Fullmer as well. Sorry.

You also conveniently left out that Fullmer was 2-1-1 against SRR.

 

RR, to me Hagler-Duran is the specific bout which is most disturbing when discussing SRR versus MMH peak for peak. El Cholo was over 22 pounds above his peak weight (DeJesus III), and nearly seven years past his peak age and peak performance (again, DeJesus III) when he finished round 13 ahead on the cards against the consensus P4P best in the world, then recently turned 29 and coming off what many considered his own peak performance, his knockout of Scypion after stopping Sibson, following the best one punch knockout win of his career in Obelmejias II.

Hagler was two and a half inches taller, outreached Duran by eight inches, at his natural weight in peak condition, and three years younger.

For my money, Hagler-Duran is as important as Montreal for my rating Duran as the greatest P4P fighter since 1950, and if the championship distance had not been in place, Roberto would have achieved with little controversy what SRL-Hagler will always be nothing but debated about forever since April 1987.

Yes, I rate Duran's championship distance performance against MMH in November 1983 FAR over SRL's SD 12 rounder against Marv in April 1987. Hagler-Roldan and Hagler-Hamsho II came for Marv the following year. MMH could hardly be accused of being on the slide when the Panamanian became only the second man to ever take him the championship distance, and would have just lost by a single point on all three cards if ringside judge Guy Jutras had not opted to somehow give the sixth stanza to Hagler 10-8.

Based on Hagler-Duran, I'll take the 145-3/4 pound Sugar Ray Robinson Burt Bienstock has described seeing in action against Jimmy McDaniels at the old MSG on June 15, 1945 over the 160 pound Marvelous Marvin Hagler who knocked out Wilford Scypion on May 27, 1983, by close but clear unanimous 15 round championship decision with no knockdowns. You read that correctly. Robby successfully concedes over 14 pounds to Marv in winning the unanimous decision by outmaneuvering, out-boxing and utilizing superior ring generalship over a confused and uncertain Hagler by putting MMH into uncomfortable Frazier attack mode, as SRR controls the movement in the ring like Ali did in Kinshasa.

The UD in favor of Robby would not be controversial.

 

After 70 years, you can certainly be forgiven for forgetting that Bennah was the referee, while with early onset Alzheimer's, my having forgotten how to count is far less forgivable. (Let's see...1, 6, 2, 19, 3, 87, 5, 1, 4...how am I doing so far?)

On that second newspaper link I posted from the Afro American, I initially missed the article which started on the upper left hand corner of page 18 by Sports Editor Sam Lacey, as well as the interview clip below the praise of McDaniels where Ray tells Lacy that 145 to 145-3/4 is his perfect weight at age 24 (also revealing that ptomaine poisoning in Philly was the true culprit behind his draw in Basora I the previous month, so small wonder he came into their Scranton rematch five years later loaded for bear).

 

Look at the Hagler-Hearns fight and try to picture Robinson in the place of Hearns. What could Robinson do that Hearns didn't try? Robinson and Hearns have similar punching power, and Hagler's chin stood up not only to that but also to guys like John "The Beast" Mugabi.

I think this version of Hagler beats anyone in MW history:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYt5Rz2XlAg

 

He wasn't.

So really, you watched three and on those based your opinion that he is a "true brawler".

Three, incidentally, which include the famous Hearns war in which both fought against type as well as Hagler's last two matches ever when he was slowing down, with Leonard basically running circles around him to intentionally make him look bad as bad as possible while not actually doing much effective out-boxing until flurries at the ends of rounds?

Jones? Why are you even bringing him up? Not a relevant name on Hagler's record. You realize that Roy Jones isn't actually the Roy Jones Sr., father of Roy Jones Jr., right? Just a random can with the same name.

So Hagler's defense wasn't underrated? Sounds like you're doing exactly that. Rolling with punches isn't the only legitimate defensive strategy, y'know...

Okay...

Yeah, really screwed the pooch against Hearns and Mugabi not carrying all the way just to prove that point, eh?

...and did you forget who the still constant aggressor was in the final minutes between Hagler and Leonard?

 

Fixed. (That's because I like you OS, and don't want to see you make an assterisk out of yourself!)

:confMeh. He did it to LaMotta more than once with that weight disparity between them, and it does get a rise out of other posters. Marv has to catch him, not get cut by SRR's power in the process (which could certainly tear open Hagler's face), and the most prevalent criticism in print of Marv prior to Duran was "average foot speed," hardly a flaw of Ray's.

"Outboxed?" With Robby's hand and foot speed? When he had to ultimately physically overpower Duran by planting himself in ring center as the stronger man? SRR wasn't Hearns when it came to withstanding punishment and recovering from crisis. Like Joe Rein posted, body shots seemed to bore him, and we saw him taunt the dangerous D

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ykes in Chicago after Bobby seemingly clobbered him.

 

I wont even address IB's inane posts. He needs to stick to doing RBRs because hes **** at everything else. So many mistakes.

Imagine Robinson "trying" to do what Hearns did against Hagler??? Well first of all Robinson didnt have Hearns delicate chin for starters. Secondly, Robinson could do everything Hearns could and did it far more consistently.

I dont know why I wouldnt pick a WW Robinson over the best version of Hagler. Robinson proved more than once what he could do with MWs when he was outweighed. Im not even sure Hagler could beat LaMotta much less Robinson. LaMotta was a damn sight better than Antuofermo who Hagler choked against the first time and deliberately fouled more than once the second time. How the **** he didnt get DQd in that second fight is beyond me. If Antuofermo can get him that frazzled LaMotta would bend him over and make him his girlfriend. Thats something few seem to ever mention. For this supposed badass Hagler was pretty weak mentally. He was overwhelmed by the magnitude of the Antuofermo fight. Thrown off by the second Antuofermo fight. Awed by Duran and overwhelmed by the magnitude of that fight. Totally psyched out by Leonard to the point he tried to box orthodox (which he sucked at, and tried in other fights to little effect as well) for several rounds. Either he was stupid or didnt hold his composure well or both and given the stories that came out of his family Id say both. He'd lose it sitting across Robinson.

 

So many you can't even address them, yet will gladly tackle fish-in-a-barrel stuff like your rebuttal of Beatle saying Robinson couldn't try anything Hearns didn't - or the probably joking suggestion by obviousalt pitting a WW SRR against a MW MMH. Way to set the bar high for yourself, klompy.

 

Hagler may have allowed Antuofermo to make up ground in the first fight, but he'd built up a big enough lead in the first half that the draw decision was universally regarded as a case of larceny.

In the second fight, Hagler didn't appear to be thrown off at all. Antuofermo did what he always did...lead with his head. He came off worse when the heads collided, but he was the one who was initiating the attempt to foul.

The main difference between the first and second fights is that Hagler made him pay for doing so. He beat a steady tattoo on him both in close and at range, won every round going away, and even put Vito on is butt in the third.

You can question the stoppage, but Hagler wasn't losing that fight and responded the way a tough fighter should when confronted with an opponent intent on doing an impression of a billy-goat.

I hardly think the second fight should be held against a strike against him. If anything, it's an indication of the improvement he had displayed since their first fight.