Sugar Ray Robinson vs King Carlos Monzon (160lbs 15 rounds)

19-19-2 in the voting. Classic stuff. I went with Monzon but 19-19-2 is about what the tally should look like.

 

Not sure how this contradicts my statement. There's nobody you mentioned that Robinson wouldn't have had a picnic with.
Robinson was definitely a harder puncher. That is not up for debate.

 

On paper, you could say Robinson is faster, sharper puncher, better footwork and slicker, but I see this as a frustrating fighting for Sugar Ray.
Monzon was a big, strong middleweight himself who knew how to adopt and win.
Robinson was still great at middle, but was really at his best at welterweight.

I pick Monzon over Robinson in a close decision.

 

It contradicts your statement that all Monzon fought were old washed up welterweights .

I wasn't talking about punching power.I was referring to strength I'd say Monzon was stronger.
Nobody had a picnic with a prime Valdez or Briscoe.
Monzon was asked about Robinson,he said he was 5 times champ,which means he lost it 5 times,I was champ for 7 years and never lost it.
I don't know who would win out of them but several good judges pick Monzon, Mickey Duff always believed Monzon witth his height and reach would be able to drop his right hand over Ray's left.

 

Monzon always looked underwhelming,never flashy or eye -catching,but when prime, he controlled every fight he was in.He was functionally extremely effective at long range and brutal with his body shots up close.

 

I said those were his two notable wins outside of Benvenuti, I didn't say they were 'all he fought' so you haven't contradicted anything. I didn't claim that the guys he fought weren't ranked so giving me a list of ranked people he fought doesn't mean anything.
If Monzon had been the around in Robinson's era he would've been lucky to sniff the title let alone hold it 5 times. Keep in mind the fact that Robinson accomplished what he did at MW when he was past his best.
Villemain, Basora, La Motta, Turpin, Graziano, Fullmer and Basilio are much higher quality wins - and would have troubled or beat Monzon on any given day. I'm pretty surprised that you are engaging in this debate since you're such a stickler for resumes as there many fights on Monzon's resume that some would consider 'set-ups'.
Robinson is appreciably better in every aspect of boxing, the only version of Robinson I would give Monzon a chance against is Robinson post Basilio (part 2).
Monzon's 'lean back' defense wouldn't work against a sophisticated fighter like Robinson.
A lot has been made about Monzon's height on this thread as something that could swing the fight in his favour but Monzon and Robinson were the same height, they were both 5'11. Monzon did have 3.5 inches of reach on him but you need a lot more than a jab to beat Robinson over 15 rounds.

 

Basora was washed up when Robinson beat him,I give Ray no plaudits for beating him ,5 years earlier Basora held him to a draw.
Monzon was 5 '11" 1/2"
I don't think any of those you named beat Monzon,but Turpin,Lamotta,Fullmer,Basilio did beat Ray.
Monzon's wins over Valdez and Briscoe are notable ones,and I'd say you are the only one here who disagrees with that.

 

Hi Buddy.
Very interesting post, however there is a couple of your assertions I would ( with your permission ) like to comment on, for the record I have in a previous post stated that for me, Robinson would have the beating of Monzon, I bow to no one in my admiration for Monzon, I grew up with him, couldn't wait to get my BN every time he fought to see how he fared, as to Monzon, your view that he would have been lucky to get a sniff at the title in Robinsons era, is if I might be so bold, plainly ridiculous, and I am not one to run down a fellow posters view or opinion, on the contrary, but I couldn't stand by and let you get away with that, also I don't see a scenario where he loses to the fighters you named, far from it, I believe Monzon would have been a champion in any era since Fitzsimmons, and I would only give the likes of, SRR, Greb, Hagler, and maybe Jones of beating him, if my comments offend you, please accept my apologies in advance.
stay safe Hank. chat soon.

 

Who did Monzon beat that Robinson would've had trouble with?
All of those guys are a step above Monzon's competition, and beat better fighters than Monzon did.
Also, Robinson didn't need to pad his record with debutants and 2-19 fighters.
Even if I were to grant you those two wins that still makes 5 notable victories.
Do you really think that Monzon fought a comparable crop of MW's?
How many 1-4 fighters held Ray Robinson to a draw?

 

Hello Mr. Cannon

Monzon clearly has sentimental value to you so I imagine that is what is influencing your judgment. Quantity is one thing Quality is another.
I would like to double down on my previous comments and say: Monzon would have been lucky to sniff a MW title in almost every era that came before him. He was born at the right time. Is that controversial enough for you?
I would like to invite you to go on boxrec and count how many guys with 50/50 or losing records (or any fighters we would consider journeymen) your hero Monzon fought and as well as how many he drew with.
You gave me 4 names of fighters you felt could have beaten Monzon, I could give you seven times that amount and the list would still be incomplete.
If you feel my assertions to be ridiculous then educate me, tell me what was so special about Carlos Monzon as a fighter: was it his non-existent defensive craft, his complete lack of rhythm or his flailing punches?
Explain: I'm all ears.

Chat soon,
Hank

 

Hi Buddy.
Firsty very polite of you to address me as Mr Cannon, not gone unnoticed, you may well be right when you say sentiment might have clouded my judgement, I could cite Monzons record, and the length of his reign, the amount of defenses, the defeats avenged, the years he went unbeaten, but I feel they will fall on deaf ears, also when you ask me to explain why he was special, I realise that you will come back with your own counter points which I will not agree with, I am old enough to know when to argue is pointless, I respect your point of view , and your reasoned reply, so let's chat again on many varied topics, and let this one be.
Thanks for your reply Hank, keep safe, that's all that matters.
Mr Cannon.

 

Mr Cannon,

I know all about Mr. Monzon's record and his very long title reign, and if I didn't I could just look that up on Wikipedia - therefore I don't think the 'deaf ears' comment is entirely accurate. I am more interested in the quality of the fighter as opposed to the quantity of their accomplishments especially when it comes to head-to-head scenarios such as the one posed in the forum.

In any case I understand that you are not interested in being embroiled in a long, drawn out discussion in which we are likely going to disagree so I will not say much more. Thanks for your response and let's chat again.

Regards,
Hank

 

Condescension

 

Argentinian practice was to score draws, look up the resumes of their fighters.

Bottom line I'm not comparing their resumes I'm matching them H2H,
and for my money this is a 50/50 fight. Robinson was a great fighter ,but not unbeatable at middleweight ,for 7 years Monzon was.

 

Monzon outclasses him for 15 rounds , they are not in the same league