Sugar Ray Robinson Vs Marvin Hagler

Monzon beats anyone at middleweight.

 

LaMotta was quite naturally bigger than Marvin and much stronger, IMO. Marvin could fight at 157 with no problems and despite his impressive physique, wasn't the biggest of MWs by any means. Don't forget that when LaMotta first beat Robbi, he beat him with a weight advantage of approx a stone in fighting weight. Robbi was a lean and trim welter fighting a MW, who was, in all reality at least a 168 fighter. The experience gained fighting LaMotta all of those times, IMO, stands Robbi in with an even better chance against Hagler, than his stylistic qualities naturally present him.

I envisage the best Hagler to be somehwere between his Minter and Sibbo performances. The best Robbi at MW, the Valentines Day Massacre and even then, Robbi was really a 154 fighter. I can't honestly see that Robbi getting bulled enough by that Hagler, getting outgutted, outfought, outpunched or outboxed - at times, yes, of course, but not enough to win a 15 round decision. For me, that Robbi's perhaps the smoothest and most problematic fighter that a Hagler could ever hope to face. By far, Robbi would definitely be the best fighter Hagler ever faced ... the same goes for Hagler being the best, at MW that Robbi would ever face ... I think Robbi has more strings to his bow to overcome the inherent dangers of such a match up than Hagler does for dealing with Robbi.

 

Correcto Mundo Don,

Last night, watched 34 year-old Carlos Monzon vs. Rodrigo Valdez I.
Monzon, just so smart in the ring, tall and elusive.

And a real man, as he gave Valdez an immediate rematch, no excuses.
And did it again, in Monzon vs. Valdez II.

 

He'd still be one of the strongest and have the chin to take Robinson's best. He's also be bringing more speed and skill to the table than LaMotta, and he wouldn't be as badly weight drained as Jake was for their last meeting. And Robinson had other close fights with the top MWs he fought. At times I wonder if he's not slightly overrated as a MW.

On the other hand, Hagler wasn't that comfortable with speed. Robinson was in a way a combination of the Hearns and the Leonard that Hagler fought.

For me this is tricky one, since you can find stylistical issues for both fighters and, of course, neither defeated a as good an opponent as each other.

 

For those who forget,,,,,,,Sugar Ray Robinson controlled and pretty much dominated
Joey Maxim, until he was overcome by the heat.

That might answer some questions on how he might handle a bigger Carlos Monzon.

But Monzon was so smart, he wanted the fight to go into the later rounds.
He played cat and mouse for the first half of the fight, then turned it on.
And the guy had a rock-chin.

 

Robinson is overrated as a champion at MW, but what is often forgotten is that this is a natural welterweight fighting into his mid-thirties having gone through wars, literally hundreds of fights and with dulled reflexes, yet, still capable of producing one punch power KO's such as the Fullmer left hook. This is simply the man that epitomises the term p4p best.

Hagler is bringing more speed and more skill than LaMotta, but Hagler's style wasn't to overly be bullish and impose his strength in his prime. He was more a boxer puncher, who relied on his timing, strong jab, range negotiation and defence to get into range to throw fluid combinations. For me, the Hagler of the Hearns bout isn't 'the representation' of a prime Hagler - it's a Hagler who knows he's outgunned, relying on his strength, aggression and chin to outfight a Hearns who was capable of denting that chin IMO. Regardless of draining, LaMotta, having fought Robbi so often, was definitely stronger than Hagler, with a chin of equal merit. Robbi being outweighed so much and still being competitive with a man as strong as LaMotta gives me a belief that he won't be totally overwhelmed, especially by a man who only weighs an additional 3 or 4 pounds that isn't as strong as Jake and isn't as bullish as Jake in his approach.

The best version of Robbi, IMO is the perfect combination of both Hearns and Leonard. He has the punching power of Hearns, with better offensive arsenal, IMO, with the good footwork, ring generalship, will to win and adaptability of a Leonard. I do think that his educated footwork and his ability to pivot on the stop and produce one punch KO power at any time stand him in better stead than Hearns was, because as Hagler crowded Hearns, Hearns' power was smothered. Robbi wouldn't need as much space to deliver his power and he just had more in his offensive locker.

Hagler is my favourite MW champion, even above Monzon, Robbi and B-Hop. I can see just exactly how he would beat Robbi and like yourself, note Robbi's being overrated at MW, especially considering that lesser men than Hagler bested Robbi. However, if this is a match up of the two fighters at their MW peak, Robbi's MW peak self is better than Hagler's MW peak self for me and I just think Hagler would make the mistake of trying too much to box Robbi than crowding him and breaking the body down.

 

If there had been a Super Welterweight Class (155 lbs.) back in the day.
Sugar Ray Robinson would have been in his perfect weight range.

Too bad that class never went through in the 1940's.
The Boxing Writers had suggested moving Middleweight to 165 lbs., and
then making a 155 lb. weight class, and calling it 'Bomberweight'

 

2 great fights. Monzon has incredible stamina for some one who smokes 40 a day

 

True. I think Hagler would have to adapt a similar tactic to beat Robinson. Box him won't do and if he's as tentative as he was against Duran and at times against Leonard, he'll most likely lose.

 

I think the version of LaMotta in their last fight gets overrated around here. His stamina was badly affected by the weight drain and he had struggled with most of his opponents since winning the title. It was very impressive to be able to stop him, but there were probably several MW contenders at that time that had a good chance of beating Jake.

 

Oh yeah, of course he wasn't the same LaMotta and the draining would affect his stamina. However, I'd still contend that he held a significant strength advantage over Robbi. The issue for consideration isn't specifically how good LaMotta was at the stage (of course this is of relevance) but moreso, look how good Robbi was against a world class opponent.

It's like Ali with the Williams fight or Tyson against an old, inactive Holmes ... look at what the film shows you about the qualities and you can see special fighters, irrespective of the condition of their respective opponents. The camera isn't inventing that footwork, isn't inventing that fluidity of movement, the combinations that Robbi was throwing weren't lies.

I think that if Hagler is to win, he must adopt similar strategy to the Hearns. The problem is, I think that Robbi's experience is too much to be sucked into this type of fight as Hearns was, his toughness too much to be taken out as Hearns was, and his power and punch placement, too much to allow Hagler to walk through him without taking his share of damage that makes Hagler respect him and box with him. I think Robbi would gain enough respect to convince Hagler to try to combine crowding with outboxing ... a game I fear Hagler would ultimately lose over 15.

 

Far from impossible.

 

hagler

 

Try to match-up fighters with 'like-styles'

Jake Lamotta and Juan Roldan
Sugar Ray Robinson and Bobby 'Boogaloo' Watts

Not that Bobby Watts was anywhere near Sugar Ray Robinson in class, but
his size and style were similar to Sugar Ray