Sugar Ray Robinson .Vs. Roberto Duran

What proof could i possibly post that would convince anyone? I hate wasting my time, and i have already posted a credible source of it and of course, you completely ignored it and brung up what you read on boxrec. :-(

 

At 147, Robinson was a beast and would have beaten Duran.

 

Duran the night he fought Leonard in Montreal would have given Ray one heck of a fight, no question about it. A lot of people say that Leonard elected to fight flatfooted in that first bout but I always felt that this school of thought wasinaccurate, Ray fought the way he did because Roberto kept cutting off the ring on him so effectively thus forcing Ray to stand his ground throughout most of the night in an effort to keep him off. If little Marty Servo and Sammy Angott could extend Ray over fifteen rounds and give him a hard time, I fail to see how a legend like Duran wouldn`t hear the final bell as some posters have suggested.

And let us not forget that for all his ability Robinson was never a defensive wiz even in his prime years as a welterweight, in fact I believe Roberto was much better defensively and got hit less than Ray. Although to be fair to Robinson he did get hit quite a bit because of his desire to mix it up and willingness to take a few in order to land several of his own punches. Anyway, I would not be surprised in the least to see Duran ambush Ray much the same way he did Leonard in their first go and beat him convincingly. Either way this would have been a great, great fight with the fans walking away as the real winners after its over.

 

No proof,no credibility,thems the breaks.Adios!

 

While I agree with most of your post RB,I think there was an element of machismo present in Leonards tactics in the first fight ,that led to his downfall.I see Duran going the distance with Ray ,but losing a dec,Robinson's legs would take him out of the danger zone if he lost the inside war,he would not stop Duran ,he had the power ,but the Panamanian had marvellous head movement ,even when tagged he could turn his head enough to take the steam off a punch.Robinson would not lay on the ropes and his jab was a good one,his body punching is underated too,Duran 's footwork as Dundee described it was "heel and toe",Robinson's was top notch,Duran would have to be the aggressor,or get his face jabbed off,but Ray was a good inside fighter ,and has the added dimension of terific footwork when needed.Montreal ,might be the blueprint for Duran,but I don't see Ray obliging.

 

I will go for roberto over 15,in a similiar way to the leonard bout.
I think robinson is too macho to elect to solely dance round the much smaller duran. Also,which fighters beat prime duran using just a jab and lateral movement? Which fighters dominated prime duran from the outside? Not even hagler did this with a fat duran. (though the super fast,super size hearns did against old duran.) Did anyone see prime leonard do this in the montreal bout?
I see robinson as having some strengths over leonard such as agressiveness and punch power,but being lesser in speed and defense. And speed and defense are much more useful against duran than pure power and agressiveness.
I think folks are also underestimating the punch power of duran,who wobbled leonard badly in the first fight,and leonard had arguably a better welter chin than robinson. Leonard was also probably stronger physically than robinson yet duran outdid leonard up close.
As has been said,ray robinson probably was at his least best v a presssure type fighter,and duran was this par excellence,and then some....
Finally,duran has faced a similiary great fighter in ray leonard,but robinson has never faced as great a fighter stylistically or literally as duran...
Its a testimony to durans genius that the consensus is a competitive loss to the no1 rated welter (and p4p man.) ,even 13 pounds above duran best weight...

 

There will certainly be some trading, and Robinson is substancially more powerful than Leonard and much more at home trading punches.

What great fighters did Duran face that relied on these two facets? Regardless Robinson isn't a jab and move merchant, contrary to the perception of many.

Duran is a fine outside fighter as well, no doubt.

Robinson has blinding speed, actually. He isn't far off the Hearns bracket for an incredible combination of both speed and power. I'd hate to live on the difference in speed between Robinson and SRL. John Garfield, are you here?

I think there is much more chance of Robinson taking Duran out, than vice versa.

Robinson mixes it much better than Leonard and has substancially more power, and Leonard is no light hitter. Let us be honest, Leonard was still very green compared to the great Duran, and also compared to the peak version of Robinson that is stepping up here. I'd hesitate to underestimate Gavilan as a welterweight. He's a great at this very weight, and SRR performed superbly against him.

Indeed it is. Duran is a phenomenal fighter, even at 147 at his best. He was born to fight, it appeared. Robinson is the same, and even more so IMO.

 

Im not too sure about robinson being substantially more powerful than leonard. I also dont feel robinson is in the hearns league of one shot power. (but then,who is really?)
I think robinson being more agressive than leonard works against him v duran,as it gives duran more openings and makes robbie more flat footed.
My point about jab and move and outside boxing was to counter posters who suggested this was how to beat duran,i appreciate that robinson can pretty much fight in any style,not just stick and move. (ditto leonard.)

I mentined durans power not suggest he would steamroll robbie,but to say that robbie would be kept very honest by it.

I dont think robbie would stop duran,only peak hearns can do that,albeit above 147.
Gavilan is an atg and the best fighter robbie fought,but he does not bring the mixture of power and skill that duran does....

Finally,how do you feel this matchup goes at 135 or p4p JT?

 

This is the forgotten part of SRR for many. The man was a crippling puncher at 147. Joe Louis (who had a lot to do with Ray) stated SRR was the hardest puncher at 147 that he had ever seen, until Hearns came along. This is high praise indeed. He definitately outguns Leonard in this regard. He also puts combinations together better than Hearns.

Leonard fought Duran pretty much totally flat footed. Robinson couldn't really be more agressive. Robinson will move a bit more, and his power and slashing speed will make it very very hard for Duran to have his way via the way the fight goes. The Leonard fight is a bit closer than many seem to think, tho a solid win for Duran. It's anything but a whupping.

Yeah Robinson ain't gonna be jabbing and moving all night etc. It wasn't actually his style really.

People can talk about Robinson getting wobbled here or there, but the man fought 200 times to the age of 44 or so and only ever failed to go the distance once, due to heat stress vs all sorts of opposition, great and other. Duran's power is fine at 147, and obviously anybody would respect it, for sure. It's not going to intimidate Robinson tho. The other is more likely TBH.

Gavilan also brought things to the table Duran didn't have. Robinson winning via stoppage is possible, but Duran's durability and savvy should see him by. He might however scale back somewhat like he did vs Hagler when discovering his usual game wasn't going to work. I wouldn't say he fought for survival, but i would say he conserved quite a bit. IMO he's lucky Hagler didn't go after him a bit at this stage, and if he fought his normal game right thru vs Hagler he would have likely been stopped. Of course he should well have been in a position like this, coming from a 135 peak vs a top 5 ATG 160. A great effort to go as well as he did admittedly.

Robinson was a novice at 135, it's Duran's territory, just like i think 147 is Robinson's in this one tho a bit less markedly. Robbo was barely past the amateur stage at 135, he's not going to blow wind up the arse of the 135 machine that is Duran. His speed and class MIGHT give a few short thrills early, but we'd have to see good film really i think. He's not going close at that weight.

P4P? I'd lightly favour Robinson but that's only a personal opinion. Both are P4P monsters, absolutely.

 

Interesting points JT.
I query one point however,when duran scaled back against hagler i think it was more to do with him getting tired because of his physical shape (up at 160.) and facing a solid middle with very good stamina who he couldnt discourage,in hagler. I think duran would never scale back like that at 147,even against robinson. Duran at 147 was a different animal to the 154/160 version.

 

Cheers mate. Definately interesting stuff.

 

Robinson by decision.

Robinson had firepower to keep Duran off him, and possibly stop him, unlike Leonard. It would be competitive, but a clear victory.

 

Do you think Hearns could take out Gene Fullmer with one punch ?

 

mcvey,

I agree that Leonard did to elect to stand his ground quite a bit in their first go, however the point I was trying to make was that even if he hadn`t done so at all Duran would still have forced him to fight much the same way due how quickly he closed the gap between himself and Ray all night long. Wether Robinson can play the matador effectively to Duran`s bullrush tactics and pressure is up for debate in my opinion, as Ray showed he always had the most difficulty against fighters who applied a lot of pressure on him and did not give him room to operate from mid-range like Marty Servo and Gene Fullmer did for example. Either way I think this is a 50/50 fight, and I think the best welterweight Duran we saw during his career would give Robinson hell every time out.

 

If you are correct what happened in the second fight ?When Leonard found the distance he needed to control the action,why didn't Duran simply cut off the ring and walk him down in that fight?I think there is an element of truth in your theory ,rather like Hagler v Hearns ,where everyone dsaid why did you trade with him? And Tommy replied he didn't give me much option really.Probably it was a combination of Leonard adapting his game plan to suit his strengths ,in their first fight Duran flung himself at Leonard ,like a demented limpet ,he was all over him ,rather like his fight with Buchanan,but he had picked up more ring craft.This plus the fact that only 5 months elapsed between the fights ,I dont think Duran was in the same shape for the second fight.Robinson hit harder than Leonard ,took as good a shot and had as varied an arsenal of punches ,plus he had a very good uppercut,which might be crucial against the shorter Duran. A close fight ,but Robinson for me.