Sugar Ray Robinson vs. The Black Murderers' Row

GPater11093 · Jul 21, 2010

Meast said: ↑

Yeah I agree with this. I too can see him struggling with Marshall, Willams and especially Cocoa and Burley....I mean there's not many 22 year old Welters that wouldn't have struggled with them.

Of course they would have been intriguing fights to watch but it really made no sense at the time, none at all.
Click to expand...

I'm not entirely sure on Cocoa Kid though. He definitly had alot more mileage than the other guys and was probably nearer the end than them also. So a young fresh Robinson might have just been too much for him at that stage IMO.

PowerPuncher · Jul 21, 2010

McGrain said: ↑

you've asked me this about three times bro.

A brief overview would be Burley's people offering Robinson's people a then careers-best payday. This was towards the end of 45 or the beginning of 46. There is a story that the price shot up upon Burley's beating Smith. Robinson is supposed to have accepted much much smaller purses going forwards.

There is a second story that Burley was approached to fight a trilogy with Sugar, but that he had to ditch the first one. The source is Otty via Burley. I don't think Otty would flat out lie and I like Burley as a witness, but it's one of those stories, isn't it? If it was true once, you can't prove it now.

There were other bits and bobs, but these two stories are the most common.
Click to expand...

Cheers mate. Imagine if he agreed to fight the 3fight series wearing the cuffs in the first and was told they were renegading on the series

teeto · Jul 21, 2010

ripcity said: ↑

Fights don't have to be made that dose not mean fights shouldn't be made.
In the case of Robinson and The Black Murderers Row. We are talking about some very talented boxers who were still at or very near the top of their games while Robinson was at or near his peak. Without these match ups we don't really know how good Robinson, Burley, Williams, Marshiall and Lytle really were.
If Pacquiao and Mayweather never fight we will really know who is the best out of them.
Greatness in all sports not just boxing is dependent on winning. I would like to know who would win. I would like a clear answer as to who the best is. I'd think this is something you would like to know too.
Without these fights we have no clear answer.
Click to expand...

****inghell Ripcity, i've explained it clearly.

Surf-Bat · Jul 21, 2010

bman100 said: ↑

Mind if I take a stab?

Charley Burley (Who Ray ducked and of whom Ray said the famous line "I'm too pretty to fight Burley, had the fight taken place in 1942, what would the outcome be?)

I honestly think these guys would stalemate each other. 10 different fights would produce 10 different results. No knockouts. But chess matches. Burley would eek out a few wins as would Robby. A few draws. I've seen this dream match debated endlessly and probably will be for a long time.

Holman Williams (not sure if they ever had an agreement to fight but it would be a very ineresting bout nontheless, who takes it?)

If they fought 5 times Robby would win three, imo. Holman was a slicker, more defense-minded fighter and would always make it a hard night for Robby. But SRR is the MUCH harder hitter(as was Burley) and that would make the difference. Plus he was no slouch in the slickness dept. himself.

Jack Chase (by the time Sugar was on the scene this man was a middleweight, still Robinson fought middleweight Lamotta while a welter himself)

A dangerous fighter. Mean and tough. Could box and slug. Robinson had major problems with middleweights. Chase could beat him. But SRR was smart and could also find a way to beat Chase.

Lloyd Marshell (also a middleweight, Burley who fought him said it was his roughest fight who takes it)

I'll take Marshall. SRR fought a lot of tough middleweights, but none with this kind of power(and no, Graziano was not a "tough" middleweight. He could dish, but couldn't take it like his contemporaries could). SRR struggled mightily with every good middleweight he fought. Luckily for him these middleweights were not big punchers. Marshall was.

Cocoa Kid (who dropped a peak sugar ray during a sparring session, this was when Cocoa was himself over the hill and inactive at 36. Robbie used him as a aparring partner in the late 40s. Sugar was supposed to meet him in the ring when still active but bolted at the last minute.)

As with Burley, too many scenarios. I can't pick a decisive winner.

Bert Lytell (a middleweight contender, there was no obligation for sugar to fight him, il admit i just added this one out of curiosity.)

He gives Ray fits with his boxing and southpaw stance. But Ray was as good a boxer and a MUCH better puncher.

Tiger Wade (a another who sugar used in the late 40s as a sparring partner, semi-retired, He seperated Robinson's sixth and seventh ribs in a spar, this was when he was old! Robinson actually fought him when he was a faded old man and was KOd by a similar shot to the ribs, before that was he was on the floor 5 times in 3 rounds, the fight was in 1950, but what it he was at his peak, would would the outcome of the fight be were they both in their prime.)

A prime Aaron "Tiger" Wade beat Archie Moore. If Moore couldn't take him out there isn't much hope for SRR to do so. Again, SRR struggled with middles and Wade was a super strong, hard-hitting and tough middle. In a series he would beat Robinson a couple times. But ultimately SRR would get the best of it in most of their fights.
Click to expand...

bman100 · Apr 12, 2011

Surf-Bat said: ↑

I'll take Marshall. SRR fought a lot of tough middleweights, but none with this kind of power(and no, Graziano was not a "tough" middleweight. He could dish, but couldn't take it like his contemporaries could). SRR struggled mightily with every good middleweight he fought. Luckily for him these middleweights were not big punchers. Marshall was.
Click to expand...

Good insight though Artie Levine was a hard hitter and SRR was nearly KO'd in 1946 by this guy, its a good thing for Ray he was not a good fighter as much as he was a good hitter, otherwise SRR would have serious problems with the guy.

Beatle · Apr 12, 2011

Robinson can't be considered the n.1 ATG. It has to be someone else. Marvin Hagler comes to mind...

GPater11093 · Apr 16, 2011

GPater11093 said: ↑

ripcity, I dont think he should have fought any of them. Most of them were past prime and campaigning at Middleweight as Robinson came to light as a small Welterweight. Most, if not all of them, were past prime and heavier than Robinson and some had even ceased to be a valid contender to fight Robinson.

The only fighter here I think has a legitimate arguemt for being ducked by Robinson, is Burley. The two should have met for the Vacant crown or met in an eliminater for it at least. After Robinson won the Welterweight crown, Burley was campaigning solely at Middleweight.

I think Robinson really came to prominence when the Murderer's Row was on the way out, and he can not be accused of having ducked the whole row as you have implied. I would very much like to hear when you propose Ray should have met some of these fighters.
Click to expand...

I still agree with myself, but I don't think Robinson and Burley had to fight, and it was no way a 'ducking' IMO.

PowerPuncher said: ↑

This thread needs McGrain, have you ever noticed Scots just love Charles Burley? They seem to think he's 1 of their own because of the Scotish surname :yep
Click to expand...

He was part Scottish wasn't he.

McGrain said: ↑

KG seems to have had some success.
Click to expand...

I've actually never seen sources for this (KG doing good with counter-punching), would love to see them.

Been thinking about a few of the match ups. Beleive it or not I think Cocoa Kid and Holman Williams have great chances to beat Robinson (in their prime) at Welterweight.

Cocoa Kid - From reading Stonehands articles, I'm learning about Cocoa Kid's style, and from my interpretation, I'd say he is a tall boxer-puncher with a great jab and can close the distance and swarm with combinations when need be, a trait he always had since turning pro.
With this in mind, I think of the Fullmer fight. Fullmer waited with that jab, popped it as Robinson looked to do something then rushed in and swarmed. Sound familiar?
I think you have to take Ray out his rhythm, or ideally, refuse him to get into it.
I think Cocoa's style lends itself well to this, as he did with Williams IMO. I can see him popping that jab and getting in with the two-fisted attacks to take a decision.

Holman Williams - I just love this guys jab, I reckon it would be a good enough tool to offset Robinson's work, not that this is a relevant comparison but I just think of Canto vs Park I. I can imagine Holman's jab landing and throwing Ray off early and allowing Holman to pick up points.
Although Burley beat Williams by offering him feints and then countering with combo's, this is something Robinson could do with his eyes shut, so they both play to each others weaknesses here, so it is interesting.

Log in or Sign up

Sugar Ray Robinson vs. The Black Murderers' Row

GPater11093 Barry Full Member

PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

teeto Obsessed with Boxing banned

Surf-Bat Boxing Addict Full Member

bman100 Well-Known Member Full Member

Beatle Sheer Analysis Full Member

GPater11093 Barry Full Member

Log in or Sign up

Forums

Sugar Ray Robinson vs. The Black Murderers' Row

GPater11093 Barry Full Member

PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

teeto Obsessed with Boxing banned

Surf-Bat Boxing Addict Full Member

bman100 Well-Known Member Full Member

Beatle Sheer Analysis Full Member

GPater11093 Barry Full Member