Sugar says Lewis is alltime great yet only top 12

No, Liston didn't have speed and Louis' footwork was a bit slow compared to some.

 

I've seen the Martin and Wepner fights, but I am not judging from them because that was when he was past his best.

I've seen Patterson 1, Williams, Valdez & Machen.

Good selection?

 

-Tyson himself disagrees with you.
-Holmes would be competitve but in a losing effort.
-A peak Bowe would have a chance, but his warring ways would hurt.
-Holyfield, like Bowe, has the skill and the speed to make it rough for Liston but his warrior mentality would see his demise.

 

I wasn't aware Louis had footwork.

 

Many seem to forget that in the Liston - Lewis stakes Lewis also has the capacity to take Liston out early. He's no Williams, he's bigger, better and harder hitting. He's also a better finisher. He was also unafraid to drop a few bombs in early vs a puncher to garner respect. Not to mention he's the quicker man with a big reach.

 

The Lewis and Liston jabs were similar, but Liston was better schooled. His jab was too. Don't know of Lewis breaking jaws with a jab.

 

But if you guys want to discredit Ali-Liston as dubious, that is fine with me, as Ali is the most overrated HW of all time, some rank him as the best H2H and that is ABSURD.

Ali is just 'accepted' as the best because of the aura that comes along with his fame, but we've got an immensely flawed and overrated fighter here.

Anyone think Ali beats Lewis? I sure as hell don't, and the last Ali fight I am basing this on is the Folley fight that I watched some weeks ago.

 

I take Lewis by KO also, Lewis is also much more skilled than Liston, so I give Liston the angle of big bomb landed or losing badly.

 

Liston's jab was a powershot, I didn't say Lewis' was. Liston is also not better schooled, in boxing, it's not wise to lean heavily into a jab, you step behind it. Lewis would beat him to the jab, Lewis had better speed and timing and sense of distance, but I didn't say his jab was harder hitting.

 

Lewis doesn't easily take out Ali?

 

Well, you are going to have to either open your mind or get assaulted out here on a regular basis. Marciano was a nightmare in the ring, and many attested to exactly that.

He was not always open... in fact, he was deceptively elusive because he crouched very low and at an angle. His weaves were at once defensive -and leverage boosting.

Bad footwork? What footwork? The leverage those thick thighs brought was optimum. His body type had every typical disadvantage that you could imagine -and Goldman made it work to the Rock's advantage. Goldman beleived in working with what you got... "make a tall man taller and a short man shorter." He also said "Alot of people say Rocky don't look too good in there. But the guy on the ground don't look too good either."

"Bad punching technique"? You got some work to do, my friend.

You are in good company though. Archie Moore watched hours of film and arrived at a well-informed position that Rocky would be susceptible to his hook. Unfortunately, during the bout in '55, Archie had to amend that conclusion --because in order to hit Rocky with that hook, he had to put himself in a position to get nailed, this due to the angle of Rocky's crouch. This was intentional. Goldman was a genious.

Alot of posters out here get hung up on pounds. I hold that the frame is more important -little guys with small frames don't fare well against guys with average frames... think LWs versus MWs. But guys with larger frames -which I believe starts around the LHW division, can hold their own against the big guys... alot of the so-called superheavies are either fat, uncoordinated, or both. Marciano, and Dempsey for that matter, would hurt any of them. Especially Lewis.

 

Haha! H2H, I have Ali as second. Guess who's first... LISTON.