Sullivan fight of the week Sullivan Burke

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by janitor, Mar 19, 2018.


  1. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Jack Burke, known as the "Little Irish Lad", had his first fight at the age of 15, and by the time he fought Sullivan at the age of 23, he had established himself as one of the top gloved fighters of the era. He fought Charley Mitchell to three draws, one with bare knuckles, and two with gloves. Wins over Captain James Dalton and Alf Greenfield put him on a collision course with the champion.

    The fight was held outdoors at the Chicago Driving Park. Sullivan's weigh has been given as various figures from 210 lbs to 237 lbs, and he was described as being out of shape. Burke's weight was given as 170 lbs, and he was described as "looking hard and firm like a race horse." Sullivan claimed in his biography that he "never trained a day for the fight", and there were reports that he "had to be roused from a drunken sleep" on the afternoon not the fight. The fight was scheduled for five rounds, and 4oz gloves were used. Sullivan was to receive 65% of the receipts, to Burkes 35%.
     
  2. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Round 1
    Burke initially fought evasively, and then engaged Sullivan in an exchange, until he was knocked down. The Chicago Herald said that Burke was knocked down, but the Chicago Herald described is as more of a balance related thing. Burke got up and attacked Sullivan to the body, only to be dropped again, by a right hand to the shoulder.

    Round 2
    Burke fought more defensively, and countered Sullivan. Sullivan tried to rush Burke to the ropes, and threw him to the stage, but was unable to do much damage.

    Round 3
    Burke fought defensively, with Sullivan doing the attacking. According to the National Police Gazette, Sullivan was warned by the police, after his attacks became too aggressive.

    Round 4
    Sullivan finally cornered Burke, and threw him. Burke attacked with his left, and Sullivan dropped him with a body shot. Burke rose and Sullivan rushed in striking him to the side of a body, again knocking him to the floor. The Chicago Herald claimed that time was called a minute early by mistake. When the fighters were sent out again, Sullivan rushed Burke to his corner, and Burke is said to have "dropped once or twice to avoid punishment". It is possible that the master of ceremonies called time early, in order to avoid police interference.

    Round 5
    Sullivan rushed at Burke, and sent him down. After Burke rose Sullivan seems to have really gone after him. The Herald said that Burke "fought back hard, but had to drop to avoid punishment." The referee told Sullivan to return to his corner, but he did not obey. The Tribune said that Burke was dropped or went down five times in total. The round ended with both men in a clinch, and Sullivan was awarded the match.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018
  3. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    The Tribune said:

    "Sullivan is not as good as he was two years ago, but despite the abuses to which he has subjected himself, he is still head and shoulders above any pugilist in the ring today."

    "Burke has proved himself worthy of his past record. "He made a creditable showing" "In point of skill and courage, he showed himself to be the champion's equal"

    The New York Clipper wrote:

    "It is manifest that Sullivan made no serious attempt to knock Burke out, being content to demonstrate his superiority as a fighter."

    The Sun wrote:

    "It was plain from the beginning, that Burke was no match for Sullivan, and this in spite of the manner in which the champion is abusing his magnificent constitution."

    Sullivan said:

    "Burke was a mere boy in my hands."
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018
  4. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    The more I look into this, the more I see a merry go round for the top contender spot, between Burke, Mitchell, Greenfield and McCaffrey.

    What is striking is not that these men were outstanding contenders, but that they seem to have been the best available at the time, and they could do nothing against the champion.

    I give Burke credit for fighting a more game fight than many of Sullivan's challengers, but the fact that Sullivan could take him so lightly, and still dominate him is shocking.

    You have to wonder how good Sullivan could have been if he had never touche alcohol!
     
  5. The Senator

    The Senator Active Member Full Member

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    Love these topics. Have to wonder both how Sully would have done sans alcohol and also if he had some stronger opponents to push him to a higher level.
     
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  6. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Burke was 20-3-2, a respectable record. But he a was very short Middleweight without a punch. In 25 listed fights at Box Rec, Burke has three listed stoppages.

    You could very well argue that Burke was the 2nd or 3rd best man Sullivan fought in the 1880's. While Sullivan won easily in 5 round on points, you have to wonder if he should have put him away.

    I'd say Mitchell and Cardiff were better than Burke.

    My quick conclusion is for the 1880's

    1 ) Mitchel is his most significant win, but he floored John L Sullivan.

    2 ) He drew with Cardiff ( Broke left arm, not his right which was his power hand ), so that partially explains he draw,

    3 ) He beat Burke but failed to finish him.

    Sullivan wasn't Babe Ruth, a guy who could party and still be world class, or maybe he was with opponents that could not make him pay for it. I lean towards was not Babe Ruth, otherwise we'd see more homeruns...AKA KO's!
     
  7. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    Back to using boxrec to asses 1880's boxers.

    JFC.
     
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  8. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    You should have picked up a number of key points from what I have written.

    1. Sullivan only had five rounds to put Burke away, which is a hard ask against a world class opponent, even if you are a wrecking machine.

    2. The master of ceremonies might well have intervened to prevent Sullivan from stopping Burke in the fourth round, and even if it was a mistake it obviously got Burke out of a tight spot.

    3. Burke would have been stopped in most subsequent eras based on the knockdowns.

    You just don't seem to be able to get your head past the Boxrec profile!
     
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  9. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker

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    Now I know why you have the time to make 56,000 posts . you like to hear yourself talk .. interesting that you say a bunch of tiny middleweights and light heavyweights were the outstanding standard to gage Sullivan by .. I love your weekly posts as they cement my point every time. Other then that they are fine for giggles .. wonder how this outstanding group of contenders would have done against Louis, Liston, Frazier, Ali, Holmes, Holyfield, Lewis or Tyson ? Just to gage your praise, how would you rate this group of outstanding challengers compared to :

    Jeffries
    Johnsons
    Dempseys
    Louis
    Marcianos
    Patersons
    Ali's
    Holmes'

    [/QUOTE]
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018
  10. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    They couldn't have done much worse than they did against Sullivan.

    He was as dominant as any champion has ever been.
     
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  11. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    I think you have to wonder if Sullivan could have taken such liberties with his lack of training if so many of his challengers hadn't been middles and super middles?
     
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  12. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    You do indeed.

    It is only fair to note however that Jeffries, Johnson, and Dempsey often had key career fights against men of similar size.

    I also think that Sullivan was more comfortable against bigger slower opponents in some ways.
     
  13. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    Though Sullivan is hardly unique for being bigger than most of his opposition. Would the Klitschkos have been so dominant without about 40Ibs of lean weight over nearly everyone they fought?

    The weakness of the era probably didn't help, but I suspect he would have fallen anyway, he's hardly the only to have, some people just seem weak to it for whatever reason. The fact he done so well in spite of it after years of abusing his body says a lot though.

    In truth you can't really gauge it in any serious way, I don't mind the speculation game, but you can't take it too seriously, he was so far ahead of an opposition we know so little about. But consider this was 4 years before his epic battle of Kilrain, and he was aleady considered past his best, before that fight he'd half killed himself.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018
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  14. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    I wonder if the reason Sullivan prefered Queensberry was because it nerfed the diving tactic, which actually meant the smaller fighters were better in LPR.

    Mitchell and Kilrain both did it a lot against Sullivan, but a really good example is Woold Bendoff vs James Robertson Couper. The much smaller Couper won and was winning, but nearly every round ended with Couper on the ground (LPR)
     
  15. FrankinDallas

    FrankinDallas FRANKINAUSTIN

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    Lol the police would have stepped in had the fighters become "too agressive". Rigo woukkd have been undisputed world champ back in Sullivan's day.