Sullivan fight of the week Sullivan Burke

Johnson?

 

Would you agree the above three were the best Sullivan fought?

Mitchell Drew with Cardiff and Burke. Biggest win likely Jim Mace

Cardiff's best result is the draw with Sullivan, but better fighters such as Killen and Jackson, who I'd argue were better than ANYONE Sullivan fought outside or Corbett beat Cardiff.

Burke's best win? Maybe Mike Cleary.

Yes Corbett, I meant in the 1880s.

 

Oh, I said he hurt his arm before in the fight. Acting like an ****head is your MO.

I also think Sullivan's right was better than his left. Corbett who lived in the times said so.

Historian Tracy Callis, agrees:

" He was powerful, quick, could hit with either hand but had exceptional strength in his right, and could take punishment "

There were very few left-handed power hitters in the 1880's.

Now show me one source that says Sullivan's left was better than his right? You can't.

Just fact facts, Sullivan either beat or drew with smaller and older men, who today would be middles to light heavies. And none of the guys I'm talking about were big punchers. This legendary power isn't showing up in the mid 1880's for many of the fights, I ask why.

 

1. I didn't say you deny it, I said you even occasionally acknowledge it. But you ignore it, you never take it into account.

2. I never said he was left handed, I said breaking your nondominant hand would still be a nightmare.

And the reason you don't see it is because you intentionally ignore facts to make up your dumb revisionist narraive.

 

Because I think in the case of many of his opponents records we have only seen the tip of the iceberg.
ps I thank you for the compliment ,however grudging it may have been.It is reciprocated unreservedly!

 

Or never recorded in the first place.

 

He continually brings up Jack Johnson's draw with Jim Johnson when he fractured the radius of his left arm in the third round as a stick to beat Johnson with.You are seeking objectivity and impartial honesty, and in Mendoza ,you are looking in the wrong place!

 

You are referring to a man who continually refers to GunBoat Smith putting Jack Johnson halfway through the ropes in a sparring session as a 4rds tko win for Smith. Common-sense, even-handedness, and honesty are absent in his posts.

 

Bit,

Just tell me why Sullivan had but two KO's from 1885-1892 in a total of nine fights. I'll give you the Cardiff fight where he injured his left arm ( which happened in 1887 Sullivan only fought two more times after this )

It seems to me as the competition level went up. ( Burke, Cardiff, McCaffrey ) ...Sullivan's KO's became rare. Strange for a puncher under 30 years old!

Now those are facts, feel free to reply to them if the narrative is false. My guess is you can't or won't which means I'm correct

 

Have you found a new friend? Many feel that Jack Johnson injured his arm at the very end of the fight during when he fell in the ring. Fact.

In addition, the judging was suspect. One judge scored it for Battling Jim, the other said Draw. With Jack Johnson being the show attraction, and likely having a say with the judges, you have to wonder if Battling Jim deserved to win that day.


" Jack Johnson barely missed losing his heavyweight championship in a ten round bout here last night. Jeffries' conqueror met Battling Jim Johnson, a big negro from Memphis Tenn. and barely lasted through the final round. He was tottering and groggy at the finish. A few rounds more and he might have been knocked out. . . . In the last minute of the fight the Memphis negro rushed Johnson to the ropes and in a mixup both went to the floor, with Jack's arm around Jim's waist. Both were on their feet quickly but Jack looked exhausted just as the final bell rang. It is possible that Jack hurt his arm in the fall to the floor. . . . In the seventh round the Memphis man succeeded in breaking down Jack's guard and three times after landing on the body grazed Jack's jaw with terrific uppercuts/ "

Why no re-match with Battling Jim, and why not give Gun Boat Smith, who most certainly was qualified a title shot? No need to show you where Smith had Johnson down and seeing stars and the 4 rd exhibition match was halted.

 

In general because opponents kept diving to avoid getting hit, short fights, and threat of police stoppage.

 

Pure speculation as there is no proof. We can romanticize or go on fact to make any sort of meaningful statement which has been my point from the start, fact. Do you also suppose that he lifted the steel beam off the kid or moved the trolley car, all of which attributed to his "Strong Boy" nickname ? Come on.

What is also fact is that starting with his 1884 tour, Sullivan became an obese, full time drunk and pretty much never performed at close to peak form again for the rest of his career which made his comeback from near death, bareknuckle battle against Kilrain astonishing. That aside, again, his most significant performance as a M of Q fighter against a M of Q opponent remains standing upright for over twenty three minute rounds while taking a thrashing as an old wreck against a prime Corbett ... it showed his heart, his chin, his stamina against far and away his best M of Q opponent. It was his Red Badge of Courage moment .. (Klompton can Google Stephen Crane and siphon the Monarch Notes... LOL ) .

I love the Sullivan myth as much as the next guy. I've read multiple times everything I could get my hands on about him, at least five Sullivan books .. anyone that studies the sociological aspect sees that Sullivan was the first national hero in post reconstruction America and represented a huge wave of immigrants assimilating into this country. He was the American dream and the country's first sports icon. He was also highly flawed. Look at the difference between all the Police Gazette drawings of a tall, heavily muscled, ripped Sullivan and the photos of the short man. It's hard to find any photo post 1883 where he does not look like a cartoonish, flabby slob. Look at the photos of his pre-fight physical prior to Corbett. He is only 34 at the time but looks like a 45 year old, barrel chested, dried out drunk devoid of any muscle tone.

MY take is that the young, peak Sullivan, from say 1881 to 82 had terrific talent. He had very good hand speed, killer instinct, strength and true KO power. However, he never sparred, he never really learned to fight the M of Q style. The newspaper accounts of his fights with Ryan say how ridiculously wild both men looked because in all respect they were pretty much amateurs .. He got by on raw ability till he blew it on John Barleycorn. Like Dempsey and many other fighters we have no clue how good he might have been because he never developed his talent to it's max but unlike Dempsey he never even fought top, heavyweight M of Q opponents.

The usual suspects can continue their dribble but there is no rational thought or hard fact to their nonsense. And I was not being sarcastic McVey.

 

So fighting with skintight gloves where you can throw opponents, and rounds ending with knockdowns is totally different than the same fighters, with skintight gloves who are allowed to throw each other (as happens a lot in the accounts), but with 3m rounds are so totally different in spite of the sports being contested by the exact same people everywhere both were going on.

The only differences were diving was less effective (though still used extensively), and less grappling was allowed though they could still get away with a ton.

And it's not pure speculation, there are tons of references to opponents clearly being well established boxers or even champions, but we don't have any record of their activitiy. We know it was poorly recorded and reported, it's just facts.