Sullivan fight of the week Sullivan Wilson

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by janitor, Mar 5, 2018.


  1. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

    71,568
    27,197
    Feb 15, 2006
    Many of you will know that Tug Wilson was the only man to win the $1000 for lasting the distance with John L Sullivan, and the bout has become infamous due to Wilson's use of negative tactics to survive at any cost. For this reason Wilson is very lightly regarded among Sullivan's opponents. The truth however seems to be somewhat more complex. What has surprised me when looking more closely at this fight, is that Wilson was seen as a legitimate threat to Sullivan, and that Sullivan was forced to take the fight to shore up his credibility as champion!

    In both June and July of 1882, the New York Times stated that the only fighter who could stand up to Sullivan, was the English fighter Alf Greenfield. The previous year however, Greenfield fought Tug Wilson. The fight was ended when Greenfield's backers broke into the ring in the 28th round, and was declared a technical draw, but the newspapers said that Wilson had the better of it.

    After Sullivan defeated Paddy Ryan he made the following declaration:

    "The said that I was only a gloved fighter, and that I was afraid to fight with bare knuckles. For that reason I consented to fight Ryan as I did. I think that I have proved that I can fight with my knuckles, and now anybody who wants to tackle me, will have to do it in my fashion."

    Following this declaration, the National Police Gazette withdrew its recognition of Sullivan as champion, and named Tug Wilson as "The Police Gazette Champion". Yes you read that right! The Herald described Sullivan as the American Champion, and Wilson as the British Champion. Sullivan agreed to box an exhibition with Wilson, on the understanding that Wilson would receive a bare knuckle fight if his performance merited it. The New York Herald wrote that:

    "The pretense of calling it a gloved contest was as thin as the gloves the mean wore, and deceived no one."
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
  2. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

    71,568
    27,197
    Feb 15, 2006
    The fight:

    The fight took place two weeks after Sullivan defended his title against Jimmy Elliot. Sullivan was 23, and Wilson 34. Wilsons weight was given as 157lbs, while one source hut Sullivan at 194lbs and another at 215lbs. Sullivan offered Wilson $1000 plus half the gate receipts, if he could last the four round distance. Back then $1000 was a years salary for a bank clerk as far as I can judge. The Times said that 2oz gloves were worn, but the Tribune stated 4oz gloves were used.

    Round 1:
    The New York Herald wrote that "Sullivan downed Wilson every few seconds until the ninth knockdown". The New York Times wrote that "ten times during the first round, Wilson was either was pushed down or fell down, but was not knocked down". The New York Sun wrote that "eleven times during the round, Wilson was knocked down by blows that battered his head, beat upon his neck, and drove the wind out of his lungs.

    Round 2:
    The Herald said that Wilson went down eight times. The Times said that Wilson was pushed down six times. The Sun said that Wilson was knocked down ten times.

    Round 3:
    Wilson seems to have clinched a lot, and employed wrestling tactics in this round. Sullivan seems to have been thrown, and Wilson seems to have been dropped twice. Wilson received some praise for his clever defensive tactics in this round.

    Round 4:
    The Sun said that Wilson was dropped, fell or was knocked down seven times.

    Wilson survived the four rounds to claim the $1000, and he was down anywhere from 21-24 times.

    The Herald wrote:
    "It was clear that Wilson's sole intention was to survive the four rounds, using whatever means were necessary to that end, even if his tactics might cast aspersions on his courage."

    The Times wrote:
    "Sullivan's pushing, swinging, mauling and fouling tactics were what caused Wilson to drop to the ground so often", and that he "took an unfair advantage by striking him before he was fully upon his feet."

    The Tribune wrote:
    "Sullivan forced the fighting in tremendous style, raining crushing blows upon Wilson's neck and head, and knocking him all about the platform, against the ropes, and upon the floor. Wilson was down almost as much as he was up. The thundering strokes which he received again and again, seemed enough to knock a dozen men senseless."

    Ex Senator Tim McCarthy said:
    "Wilson went in merely for the money, and he got it by sticking to Wilson as long as he could, and when he went to grass he took the full benefit of his knockdown".

    Sullivan said:
    "It hardly could be called a fight, for Wilson was only interested in floor crawling and hugging."

    So that is as clear as mud then!
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
    Reason123 and The Senator like this.
  3. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

    71,568
    27,197
    Feb 15, 2006
    The aftermath:

    A rematch was scheduled for August of the same year, but the authorities prohibited it. A lawyer advising the Mayors Office said the the previous fight "had not been legal sparring, but an illegal prize fight, and therefore so to would the upcoming contest."

    After the fight Jimmy Elliot, who Sullivan had previously defeated in a gloved bout, challenged Sullivan to a bare knuckle fight. When Sullivan refused he claimed the American title. The National Police Gazette proposed to match Elliot and Wilson for the vacant title, but Wilson declined to take part and returned to England.

    Although Wilson lasted the distance to claim the $1000, his reputation was tarnished, and "doing a Tug Wilson" later became a metaphor for fighting to survive. Sullivan;'s reputation seems to have lost a little luster, but Wilson's failure to mount an effective challenge for his title, as only seen as underlining his superiority.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
  4. The Senator

    The Senator Active Member Full Member

    570
    857
    Dec 10, 2017
    Sheesh, I love these topics. Tug Wilson sounded like the John Ruiz of his time, but somewhat less skilled, as the account clearly states that he got thrashed from bell to bell until he earned his reward.
     
    janitor likes this.
  5. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

    71,568
    27,197
    Feb 15, 2006
    I don't think that we can rate Wilson very highly as a contender, if only because he was not there to win.

    Surprisingly, he does seem to have been regarded as a serious contender at the time.

    I guess that whether Wilson was any good or not, Sullivan did what he should have done, and dominated him.

    I can't see Wilson having made it out of the first round today.
     
  6. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker

    25,424
    9,394
    Jul 15, 2008
    Are you trying to prove your point or mine ? Tug Wilson was a 34 year old 150 some odd pound bare knuckle fighter who challenged Sullivan w Gloves .. no one is saying that Sullivan did not exist or that he did not fight. MY point has been the quality of his opposition under the M of Q rules .. I cannot find a M of Q record for this old middleweight on CBZ or BozRec .. it there one and is he one if the quality opponents you are representing that Sullivan defeated as a M of Q fighter ?
     
  7. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

    55,255
    10,354
    Jun 29, 2007
    While I like reading this stuff, I too wonder who Sullivan beat in his prime. He should have finished this guy in 4 rounds.
     
  8. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker

    25,424
    9,394
    Jul 15, 2008
    I like it too but it is not the point nor what motivated Janitor to start his pilgrimage .. I asked who did Sullivan fight under M of Q rules to justify his legend , a legend we all love and he spent endless gibberish spins accusing me of ignorance to trying to last word me to oblivion without naming anyone and then chose to triple down with this line of threads that prove nothing ..

    I repeat .. who did Sullivan defeat under M of Q rules that define him as a all time great M of Q fighter ?
     
  9. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

    71,568
    27,197
    Feb 15, 2006
    My three threads to date, have been more to provide context than anything else.

    There were no Queensbury specialists before Sullivan.

    The first generation of Queensbury specialists, were contemporaneous with him, and he was a young man when he won the title.

    What I hope you will take away from this thread is the following:

    1. The key fights of the era were often billed as exhibitions for legal reasons, including the fights that decided the future direction of the division.

    2. These are the kind of details that you cannot pick up through Boxrec.

    3. Sullivan was under pressure both to fight under bare knuckle rules, and to conform to the laws that banned prize fighting.

    4. Sullivan was a Queensbury specialist, who only fought with bare knuckles, when it was unavoidable from a career standpoint.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
    Seamus likes this.
  10. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

    71,568
    27,197
    Feb 15, 2006
    In what other era could "this guy" have been knocked down 20+ times in four rounds, and been allowed to finish?

    I don't think that sh1t would have been tolerated even in the Dempsey era!

    But as I have said, the last three threads were more to set the scene than anything else.

    We have looked at:

    1. Sullivan beating the reigning champion in a gloved bout.
    2. Sullivan beating the reigning champion in a bare knuckle bout.
    3. Sullivan fighting the Police Gazette's Champion, to shore up his title claim.

    We left out:

    The Sullivan Elliot fight, because Elliott was a bare knuckle specialist like the others, but I did not see it as politically relevant.

    As Sullivan's reign progressed, more Queensbury specialists would emerge, and we will see that in later threads
     
    BitPlayerVesti likes this.
  11. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker

    25,424
    9,394
    Jul 15, 2008
    All wonderful except my point is correct .. his biggest accomplishment towards legitimacy as a gloved fighter was going over twenty rounds as an old, fat, inactive drunk against a prime Corbett .. he did not fight or defeat anyone of serious merit in the heavyweight division under M of Q rules in his whole career which is exactly my point. He did not choose to fight a Peter Jackson or any of the tough and active fighters coming out of Australia despite traveling over there in the 1880's.. there were options .. not to knock the legend but this started comparing his M of Q opposition to that of John Ruiz's and I said it is no comparison in favor of Ruiz .. FYI I have carefully read Isenberg's "John L. Sullivan and His America" several times in addition to Pollack's books and the more recent Strong Boy .. not a novice here ..
     
  12. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

    71,568
    27,197
    Feb 15, 2006
    Will you at least allow me to lay out my case before deciding?
     
  13. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

    8,584
    11,099
    Oct 28, 2017
    I don't think he was the only one who did that against Sullivan. He probably only fought like that because there was money in surviving.
     
  14. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

    8,584
    11,099
    Oct 28, 2017
    At this stage of his career this is like criticizing Ali for his lack of 4 round bouts, and good 4 round opposition.

    How can you find it so hard to focus on when he was in his prime and fighting activity, rather than when he was drinking himself half to death? Geez
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
    Seamus likes this.
  15. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

    71,568
    27,197
    Feb 15, 2006
    The first cracks in his sobriety were showing at this point. He was fined for verbally abusing a police officer around this time. He also got into a fight with a man in a bar, and broke his jaw. He was charged with assault, but was he was acquitted, after witnesses said that the other man started it.