Sullivan in the inter-period between Tunney and Louis - can he win the title?

I most often like to do these scenarios as (in this case) Sullivan, coming along in Sharkey/Schmeling/Carnera/Baer/Braddock's day, with his natural potentials, and developing, to the opportunities of the time, in ratio as he did to the opportunities of his own time. On such qualifications, my hazy bet is that we'd be talking about Sullivan along with Sharkey, Schmeling and Baer; and I could see reasons why Sullivan may have taken them in tow, and reason why any of them might have taken Sullivan's measure.
Sullivan right at them from out of the 1880's, I feel like Sharkey, Schmeling and Baer should probably be more than moderate but less than definite favorites over The Strong Boy. And I think even this Sullivan would be able to raise enough Hell to justify meetings with the top tier.
Back to the 'Born into Sharkey/Schmeling/Baer's Generation' Sullivan -- I feel like, if Sullivan really, REALLY applies himself to the technic and conditioning of his craft, as he should -- then he had the 'stuff' to (fair possibility) have become that periods heavyweight hegemon. But: 'Nature fashioned the fighter, and the fighter abused nature.' We here would be going a span of daylight beyond the 'in ratio' clause.

 

Sure, if there are attributes clearly described in the literature they’re definitely up for discussion because the literature is all we have.

 

Yeah, for the sake of the intended exercise we can either 1) take them exactly as they were (or as they were described) OR, more realistically, 2) take them as they were and extrapolate on that, allowing for the influences of the era/fighters that we’re placing them into and amongst, and then factoring all that into their revised development.

I don’t mind factoring fighters exactly as they were simply for the purpose of chewing over how their exact style might’ve fared in later eras - but the reality is, if actually born into and brought through the later era we nominate, we more than likely would be looking at a somewhat different fighter stylistically - even though our projections would still be based on their core attributes, like athleticism, power, speed, reflexes etc., as we best know them.

 

Agree wholeheartedly.

 

Sullivan was a 5 10 bare knuckle champion who wouldn’t fight black fighters. He got his ears boxed off by Corbett once they went to gloves. Yes he was older but he’s got little chance to beat any of these guys unless their fighting bare knuckle rules.

 

The I would definitely say that he had power and hand speed.

 

Sullivan liked to say he was a natural fighter and, in explaining his success, downplayed the factor of deliberate cultivation of orthodox technic. I think it's fairly apparent, though, that Madden influenced Sullivan to punch straighter. I think that Sullivan, maybe mid-'81 to mid'-83 (when the tedium of touring began to get to him, and Sullivan started getting a 'I'll train when I need to' mentality), was the best of Sullivan. I think a 'later' Sullivan, with that base level of openness to learning and keeping in fair condition, would have a fair likelihood of showing as the brightest comet of the Tunney-Louis interim. [If Sullivan could KEEP focus, I think he could have made a formidable opponent for Louis, in fights which probably wouldn't take long to be settled].

 

I don’t think anyone can rationally question his power. The question is how far out of his league would he be skill wise participating against far more experienced M of Q fighters. Sullivan’s level of opposition against heavyweight M of Q fighters borders on amateur. I’d say many amateur heavyweights have had far more experience. It’s a sport and he never participated at a high level in it. You mention Paddy Ryan and that’s a perfect example of his best heavyweight opposition pre-Corbett

 

I often go back and forth with John L. I know that thinking of him as a bare knuckle fighter is the wrong thinking. Sullivan was primarily a glove fighter throughout his career. I believe he actually preferred MOQ rules. In thinking about this thread, sometimes I think John would not have won the Lineal Title between Tunney and Louis, but sometimes I think he would have bested them all, Schmeling, Sharkey, Carnera, Baer, and Braddock, and held onto the title until Joe Louis came along. He is very hard to evaluate with any conviction one way or the other.

 

Sullivans fought more often with gloves but it doesn’t change the fact his most famous wins at heavyweight were bare knuckle such as Ryan and Kilrain and his heavyweight opposition was chiefly comprised of amateurs putting on gloves to fight, complete newbies. Sullivan never trained till Muldoon, never sparred, was essentially as his autobiography was titled, a 19th Century Gladiator. He never fought a heavyweight that could have beaten Butterbean till Corbett.

M of Q boxing is a sport with rules. We see it more than ever in crossover matches when men of other sports compete and our hero’s, be it Duran or Toney or Ali being spun like a top by Gorilla Monsoon are easily defeated . We can no longer honestly think the heavyweight champ is the baddest man on the planet , simply the best at that sport with those rules. Asking a novice like Sullivan to defeat far more experienced M of Q fighters is an absurd reach despite his completely unrealized natural potential or our own romanticism.

 

You seem to have it all figured out. As for me, I do not know who the newbies were and who has incomplete (or completely missing) records from that era, nor am I sure exactly how good some of them were, or how good John L. Sullivan, himself, was, with gloves, under MOQ rules.

 

Newbies to me mean next to no experience fighting M of Q ... maybe you can name one heavyweight he fought with gloves and defeated that you'd say could defeat four round king Butterbean ?

 

You seem to know all about that era and John L. Sullivan's opponents. I do not make such a claim. My answer is (as I have stated before): I do not know. I have seen nothing that could sensibly provide an answer, one way or another, to any question about most of John's opponents, or their experiences under MOQ rules. All I am sure of is their records are incomplete or missing, since some of these "newbies" seem to have built quite some reputations for "next to no experience."

 

Like who ? Simply curious on your take .

 

Just to throw out 10 names from memory, do you really believe that Donaldson, Fleming, Henry, Laflin, Marx, McCaffrey, Mitchell, Phillips, Robinson, or even Ryan were all MOQ newbies when Sullivan fought them under MOQ rules?