Sullivan vs. Carnera

Peak John L. from '82-83 vs. peak Carnera of the early 30s. Who wins?

 

I agree, I think like how you feel about the outcome of this fight largely depends on how you feel about Sullivan's era compared to Carnera's era from a technical perspective. No doubt did Sullivan's era have a VASTLY smaller talent pool, but it's not like 'scientific' boxers didn't exist. And Sullivan, for what it's worth, was seen as a damn fine technician for the period. From Pollack's book:

"You have heard of hundreds of men, when speaking of Sullivan, say, "He wins by brute strength," and I have seldom seen a man who advanced the truth, which is that Sullivan is as clever as any man. His unquestioned ability as to being the hardest hitter ever seen has caused the overlooking of the fact that his blow is always planted where it will do the most good, either upon the jaw or jugular - again, it is certain that could an adversary so land his blow, Sullivan would fall as quickly as another, and yet having knocked out about sixty men, he has never been harmed. The truth is that Sullivan is a careful, scientific fighter. Do I think his equal as a pugilist ever trod the earth? Certainly not. Even in imagination the ancients never conceived such a hitter as Sullivan."

"The superiority of Sullivan lies in his extraordinary nervous force and his altogether incomparable skill as a boxer.

In what does his extraordinary skill consist? In hitting as straight and almost as rapid as light; in the variety and readiness of his blows....in movements as quick and purposeful as the leap of a lion. He can duck lower than any feather-weight boxer in America; he can strike more heavy blows in ten seconds than any other man in a minute, and he watches his opponent with a self-possession and calculation that do not flurry with excitement, but only flame into a ravening intensity to beat him down."

The Times-Democrat once summarized: "Sullivan was one of the quickest big men that ever lived; that with all his aggressive ability, which had in reality not been overrated, he was quick as lightning at parrying, ducking, dodging and getting out of the way generally. While his tactics were never to unnecessarily delay a contest, he well knew when it was desirable to rush and when it was prudent to bide his time. In brief, Sullivan, in addition to being probably the hardest hitter that ever stood in a prize ring, was also one of the quickest of big men, a thoroughly scientific boxer by instinct as well as training, and without a superior as a ring general. In this way many boxers of skill and comparatively good sense were ignominiously defeated."

Mike Donovan observed that Sullivan was; "quick as a cat and very strong, rushing at him like a panther. In fact he was the strongest man I had ever met, and I had boxed nearly every big man of reputation up to that time, Paddy Ryan included, and was considered the cleverest man in the ring."

After defeating Donaldson: "If the days of the prize ring were not gone by, Sullivan would stand at the head and front of the fraternity."

"He is as lithe as a panther, and his rush is like an avalanche. His fists flash through the air like bolts of lightning, and his every movement is the perfection of grace."

"He is about the most restless piece of humanity that we ever saw in the shape of a man. His every move conveys the idea of restlessness. He strikes to count, and fights to win. He goes at his opponent with a dash, hits out right and left, recovers his guard and strikes another smashing blow, then, jumping from the ground he rushes at his antagonist and follows him up, shooting out terrific blows and recovering himself with lighting rapidity."

After a grossly out of shape Sullivan visited Australia in the early 1890s, he surprised spectators with his technique, as they thought Sullivan was a crude swinger. The Sydney Referee said of Sullivan:

"He is remarkably quick on his feet for so big a man, and shoots his left hand as cleverly and as neatly as a youngster, whilst his heavy right hand, of which we have heard so much, comes across like a mule kick."

Joe Choynski had the opportunity to see and even spar with Sullivan during this time. When the well known sportswriter Smiler asked Joe if Sullivan could land his right swing on a big technician like Jackson, Choynski said, "You have never seen Sully fight, Smiler. His right arm don't do any swinging; it comes across like a flash of lightning with a jerk."

 

I feel like Sullivan has all the tools to take Primo out even quicker than Baer did, maybe even Louis as well since Sullivan was so aggressive. Sullivan was seen as a scientific 'rusher', that combined with his apparently terrifying speed and you have a recipe for disaster for a giant as wide open as Primo.

The only person from Sullivan's era we have to judge from are Mike Donovan and Jim Corbett. From what I've seen from a 60 year old Donovan (grey hair), he's impressed me enough to believe he was a much better and more pristine technician in his prime. 0.75 speed imo makes it easier to analyze their techniques:

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Looks like a better fundamental boxer than Corbett does IMO, even at such an old age. When Donovan sparred Sullivan again in 1887, he said that Sullivan had, "wonderfully improved in science as of late."

"He holds his hands higher and better than he did, and he is the cleverest big man the ring ever saw. He ducked away from several blows with a quickness that astonished me."

 

Loved the Gentleman Jim movie, but it was rather stereotypical in its boxing history. The great masterful Corbett defeats the crude Sullivan and thus advances it further as a sport! Lol

 

Referee Sydney September 23 1891

Another quote from Choynski,

“I don’t think he’d (Jackson) have a ghost of a show with Sullivan. You see, it’s this way. Sullivan is quicker than I am, and he hits with terrible power. If I’d had a tenth of Sullivan’s force I’d have beaten Goddard both times I fought him,