Sullivan vs. Louis - Does John L. stand a chance?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Melankomas, Jun 7, 2023.



  1. Melankomas

    Melankomas Prime Jeffries would demolish a grizzly in 2 Full Member

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    Sullivan beats every heavyweight in a bar
     
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  2. Reinhardt

    Reinhardt Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Rules, that's the problem. If Louis fought Sullivan under the rules of 1880 I'd pick John L. everyday of the week. In Louis's time ? it's the brown bomber.
     
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  3. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Impossible to say.

    There is a lot of room for interpretation regarding how good Sullivan's defense was.
     
  4. Nosferatu

    Nosferatu Corbett's thong is my proudest fap banned Full Member

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    Any specific rule differences between gloved combat rules in 1880s vs. 1930s?
     
  5. Reinhardt

    Reinhardt Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    In 1880 you could grapple and throw a man down
     
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  6. ikrasevic

    ikrasevic F(_)CK the new age Full Member

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    We don't have footage of John L Sullivan to know how he fought, but we do have footage of "Gentleman" Jim Corbett, the man who beat him. And that's why I don't think John L Sullivan has a chance against Joe Louis, which is no shame considering the boxers and champions Joe Louis has beaten.
     
  7. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    I would favor Sullivan. He would finish the job with his right that Galento could not finish with his left.
     
  8. Melankomas

    Melankomas Prime Jeffries would demolish a grizzly in 2 Full Member

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    In gloved boxing? Not sure that was legal, although in bare knuckle it was allowed. Here are the Queensbury Rules Sullivan (usually) fought under:

    1. To be a fair stand-up boxing match in a 24-foot ring, or as near that size as practicable.
    2. No wrestling allowed.
    3. The rounds to be of three minutes' duration, and one minute's time between rounds.
    4. If either man falls through weakness or otherwise, he must get up unassisted, the boxer has 10 seconds to allow him to do so, the other man meanwhile to return to his corner, and when the fallen man is on his legs the round is to be resumed and continued until the three minutes have expired. If one man fails to come to the scratch in the 10 count allowed, it shall be in the power of the referee to give his award in favour of the other man.
    5. A man hanging on the ropes in a helpless state, with his toes off the ground, shall be considered down.
    6. No seconds or any other person to be allowed in the ring during the rounds.
    7. Should the contest be stopped by any unavoidable interference, the referee to name the time and place as soon as possible for finishing the contest; so that the match must be won and lost, unless the backers of both men agree to draw the stakes.
    8. The gloves to be fair-sized boxing gloves of the best quality and new.
    9. Should a glove burst, or come off, it must be replaced to the referee's satisfaction.
    10. A man on one knee is considered down and if struck is entitled to the stakes.
    11. That no shoes or boots with spikes or sprigs (wire nails) be allowed.
    12. The contest in all other respects to be governed by revised London Prize Ring Rules.
     
  9. Reinhardt

    Reinhardt Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I had a chance years ago to put on some gloves from that era, you could grab about anything you wanted with those gloves. They were closer to being work gloves than the boxing gloves of today. Those gloves would give a strong powerful man a big advantage, holding, grappling and wrestling inside. Give a prime Duran those things and he'd hurt someone
     
  10. Melankomas

    Melankomas Prime Jeffries would demolish a grizzly in 2 Full Member

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    The gloves between the Sullivan era and Louis era weren't really that different, for example here's a pair of Jimmy Barry's gloves from 1894:

    https://dyn1.heritagestatic.com/lf?set=path[1/3/2/2/1/13221306]&call=url[file:product.chain]

    Here are Louis' gloves against Schmeling:

    https://ids.si.edu/ids/deliveryService?id=NMAH-2007-1278&max=1000
     
  11. Melankomas

    Melankomas Prime Jeffries would demolish a grizzly in 2 Full Member

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    Here's a quote I found from Sully himself talking about technical boxing:

    'There is more intelligence required in this business than outsiders give us credit for. A man fights with his head almost as much as he does with his fists. He must know where to send his blows so they may do the most good. He must economise his strength and not score a hit just for the sake of scoring it.
    Learn to strike straight and clean. Swinging blows nearly always leave an opening for your opponent. It is always well to do your leading with the left, reserving your right for a good opening. Always watch your opponent, as soon as you see him about to lead, shoot your left into his face. The force of his coming forward will increase your blows considerably.
    I endeavour to hit my man above the heart or under the chin or behind the ear. A man wears out pretty soon if one can keep hammering away in the region around the heart. A blow under the chin or behind the ear will knock a man out quicker than a hundred blows on the cheek or any other portion of the face.'
    He isn't really talking about defense here, but it shows he had some idea of how to box technically. It's unfair to just classify him as a mindless brawler.
     
  12. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Sullivan was definitely an offensive fighter, who fought out of a crouch.

    With regard to his defense, you can read the contemporary reports, in a number of ways.

    I could find you a contemporary account of a Sullivan exhibition that says "neither man exhibited much science."

    I could also find a source that says "teh truth is seldom advanced, that Sullivan is as clever as any man."

    That leaves us a lot of wiggle room for interpreting him, though my hunch is that the observers who praised his cleverness, probably knew what they were looking at better than the opposite camp.

    We saw exactly the same thing with Mike Tyson.

    So there are a number of plausible versions of Sullivan, and they include versions who would have a chance against Joe Louis, or Wladamir Klitschko.
     
  13. FrankinDallas

    FrankinDallas Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    My god both guys look like the biggest pansies on the face of the earth. They both give white men a very bad name.
    I'm positive that Michelle Yeoh could have kicked both their pale asses.
     
  14. slash

    slash Boxing Addict Full Member

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    yes, he does. mentality is 50% of it. he would believe he would beat louis.. so he'd put some moments on louis
     
  15. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    Since there is no film available ( or not that I know of ) I don’t know what Sullivan looked like In a fight. But he was widely reported on as being a very tough, strong and hard hitting man. And let’s face it…. He DID legitimize boxing as an organized sport. With that said, I think he should be given a “ chance “ against Joe Louis. But Louis should be made a heavy favorite judging by the superior legacy he set many years after Sullivan’s time