Sulllivan vs Corbett was not the first Gloved match for the world's heavyweight champ

That is a myth and I am not sure how it got started. My book never said that or even suggested it. The McCaffery bout was just another Sullivan Queensberry rules fight.

Folks have a tough time figuring out when Sullivan became the gloved champ because he was the first one, and champions were LPR back then, so some purists didn't even consider his gloved bouts actual fights. Sullivan gained championship recognition since the Ryan fight in 1882, but that is because it was an LPR bout which folks saw as a real fight. In truth he was the best gloved fighter in the world as of 1880, when he beat the living hell out of Joe Goss in a gloved exhibition and actually knocked him out under Queensberry rules. Goss then went on to officially lose his LPR title to Ryan AFTER Sullivan had already pulverized him. I explain how this was a transitional period for the sport and there were a lot of gray areas as a result. There is nothing particularly special about the McCaffery bout that made it any different than several of Sullivan's gloved fights.

 

Sorry if I'm being obtuse here. I'm just confused. So you're saying it wasn't the FIRST one? Obviously it was a Queensberry fight. But if this wasn't the first heavyweight championship bout under QB rules then which one was?

 

If you read my book, you will better understand that gloved boxing was a new thing, and not considered a real fight. That is how fighters got around the laws that would send them to jail or prison if they fought. Based on hundreds of years of history, LPR fights were real fights. So at first they didn't even consider Sullivan's fights real fights. They had to call them limited rounds gloved exhibitions of skill so they wouldn't get arrested, and even then Sullivan still had legal troubles because the politicians, public, and police figured out that these were still actual fights, but fit into a legal gray area. Regardless, the gloved fighter Sullivan didn't have anywhere near the legal troubles that he would have had if he had engaged in more LPR bouts, or actual championship fights under the thinking of the time, which fairly universally were felonies and would land you in the clink for an extended stay and cost a lot of money in legal fees. This was demonstrated by the Kilrain LPR bout, amongst others.

Sullivan said he was the best gloved fighter in the world and he was, and he proved it against anyone who would get into the ring with him. He proved it against Goss in 1880, but didn't get the championship credit because at that time an LPR fight was a championship fight and a Queensberry rules bout was not. Practically considered two different sports. After Sullivan defeated Ryan in an LPR championship bout, he said that since he had proven himself without the gloves in an LPR bout, and established himself as a legit "champion" under the understanding of the time, he then had the ability to force others to fight him under his preferred methodology, which was gloves. But still the purists remained, which is why he eventually gave in and fought Mitchell and Kilrain under bareknuckle LPR rules.

Listen to this lecture for more info:

http://www.opal-online.org/Flagler20090208/

If the link doesn't show up, just find online the flagler museum, click lecture series 2009 and you'll see the lecture I gave on Sullivan.

 

Sorry if I was snippy. Yes, his fights were real championship fights from our historical perspective, but were called exhibitions and of a limited number of rounds out of pure legal necessity. The perspective of the time didn't perceive them as championship fights so much because they were different than the norm that had been established for hundreds of years, which were the LPR rules. But Sullivan legitimized himself as the best in the world because he was so dominant in these gloved bouts, and did prove himself in an LPR bout against Ryan by pummeling him. Sullivan did other LPR bouts as well, but usually they were with gloves and they had to go to great lengths to avoid the law.

 

No problem, Adam.

Serious question here. You've done all the research, so what historically can be considered the first legit heavyweight championship fight under Marquis of Queensberry rules?

 

John L. Sullivan is a pivotal figure in the sport of boxing because he was so special that he made gloved Queensberry rules boxing, the type of boxing we watch today, a popular national and international money-making sport, and started it on its path towards acceptance as the form of fighting that could determine a true boxing champion.

Contrary to popular belief, Sullivan was really more of a gloved fighter than he was a bareknuckle fighter. In fact, he only fought three bareknuckle bouts. However, there are reasons why his bareknuckle fights were amongst his most famous.

Because gloved Queensberry rules were new, and fundamentally different from bareknuckle rules, which had been in existence for over a hundred years, it took time for traditional fight purists to accept them. Due to its acceptance amongst traditionalists, Sullivan occasionally, though rarely, engaged in bareknuckle fights.

Sullivan is a transitional figure in boxing. To understand his radical impact, you have to understand something about bareknuckle prizefighting. Bareknuckle prizefighting began its evolution in the 1600s in England, and existed for well over 150 years, longer than gloved fighting has existed. So, it had a deeply rooted history that gloved boxing rules had to overcome.

The accepted bareknuckle rules of Sullivan’s era were the London Prize Ring Rules (LPR). Bareknuckle (LPR) fighting was practically a different sport. Boxers fought with their bare hands, without gloves or handwraps for protection. An LPR round was of unlimited duration, ending only or as soon as someone was knocked down or thrown down. A round could last a few seconds, or it could last an hour. Above-the-waist Greco-Roman wrestling was legal, as was holding and hitting. After a boxer went down, he would have up to 38 seconds to present himself ready to fight again. LPR fights were to the finish, continuing until someone was knocked out, retired, or a draw was declared because they were too exhausted to knock one another out. A boxer could go down as many times as he liked, and therefore obtain rests and extend the bout’s length. As a result, many of these bouts were lengthy wars of attrition, and quite brutal.

Unfortunately, LPR bareknuckle prizefighting was illegal. Fighters could serve lengthy prison sentences for engaging in this sport, which was a felony in most states. The law was the number one impediment to the flourishing of the sport.

Despite its illegality, because of its lengthy history, bareknuckle LPR prizefighting was firmly accepted as the true test of a champion. This is the real reason why John L. Sullivan engaged in three bareknuckle and a few gloved prizefights under the London Prize Ring Rules, despite the fact that he could be subject to a prison sentence for engaging in fights to the finish under the LPR rules.

In about 1866-1867, just after the U.S. Civil War, John Sholto Douglas, then the Marquis of Queensberry, published a set of boxing rules written by John Graham Chambers which are the foundation of today’s rules. They required gloves, usually ranging from 2 to 5 ounces, but up to 8 ounces, rounds were three minutes in length with a one minute rest, wrestling moves and holding and hitting were illegal, and a downed boxer only had 10 seconds to rise and immediately continue.

Queensberry rules were originally intended for exhibitions and amateur bouts, not real fights. It would require the advocacy of a star, in conjunction with legal circumstances, to make the Queensberry rules become popular in the 1880s.

Ironically, it was the perception of Queensberry rules boxing as not being real fighting that helped gain this form of fighting a foothold in society. The Queensberry rules were perceived as more civilized than the London Prize Ring Rules, and marketed as sparring exhibitions of skill. Therefore, depending on the jurisdiction, police and politicians often tolerated such bouts, at least to a certain degree. These rules gave boxers a way to practice their craft and make money with a reduced fear of violating anti-prizefight laws and going to prison.

However, despite the more civilized image the Queensberry rules brought the sport, boxing had an uncertain legal status for quite some time. Politicians and police had vacillating views about the sport, and throughout his career, Sullivan had to tangle with the law. Exhibitions of skill were legal, but pummeling an opponent into insensibility, Sullivan’s forte, was often perceived as going beyond mere exhibition, and therefore illegal. Yet, it was that illegal style that made Sullivan rich and famous.

Sullivan actually preferred gloved bouts, for several reasons. First, gloves protected the hands. Ironically, this protection allowed fighters to hit harder and more often. The ten-second rule caused bouts to end faster and in a more entertaining fashion, as opposed to bareknuckle fights that could continue ad infinitum due to the lengthy recovery rules. Thus, the gloved rules were perfect for Sullivan’s speedy, hard-punching, swarming style. He liked to end matters quickly. It was this style that the general public most admired and enjoyed.

However, Sullivan was willing to engage in either type of bout. It was the fact that bareknuckle LPR bouts were illegal that led to his participation in mostly gloved Queensberry rules bouts masquerading as sparring exhibitions in order to avoid the law, when they really were intended as fights. The Queensberry rules enabled Sullivan to fight before the paying public often.

Sullivan was such a phenomenal talent that he helped bring the Queensberry rules to prominence and make gloved boxing the norm rather than the exception. The public enjoyed and admired Sullivan’s performances. Everyone wanted to see him, which made John L. a lot of money, and achieved immense popularity for the sport. Participation vastly increased when young men saw that they could make good money as boxers.

Generally, boxers engaged in short 4-round “exhibition” bouts, which then secured for them backers for a “real” fight to the finish under London Prize Ring Rules.

The bout that really put Sullivan’s name on the map was his April 6, 1880 gloved Queensberry rules exhibition with then American champion Joe Goss, an experienced veteran of the bareknuckle game who had fought many LPR bouts lasting one, two, and even three hours. Goss was scheduled to fight Paddy Ryan in an LPR bout advertised as being for the world’s championship. When Sullivan easily stopped Goss in 2 rounds, it was obvious that he was the best fighter in the country. However, because it was a Queensberry exhibition and not a “real” fight to the finish under LPR rules, Sullivan was not considered the champion. Two months later, in an LPR fight, Paddy Ryan stopped Goss in 87 rounds lasting 1 hour and 24 minutes.

During 1880-1881, Sullivan fought at least eight Queensberry rules “exhibition” fights. He engaged in two LPR bouts in order to prove himself in “real” fights and get more credit. However, both of these LPR fights were fought with gloves. Therefore, all of his 1880 and 1881 bouts were gloved.

Sullivan’s first bareknuckle prizefight was for the world bareknuckle championship under LPR rules. It was held on February 7, 1882 against Paddy Ryan, who was backed by Richard K. Fox’s National Police Gazette.

In front of 2,000 spectators, the aggressive Sullivan rushed in and delivered multiple blows in rapid succession to deck Ryan quickly. The 9 round bareknuckle LPR fight only lasted 11 minutes until Ryan could no longer continue.

Sullivan was called a wonder with tremendous two-fisted hitting powers, quick to seize openings, forcing the fight, and able to dodge and receive little punishment in return. Impressed experts unanimously declared that Sullivan could have defeated all past ring champions.

It would be six years before Sullivan fought without gloves again. Therefore, Sullivan was really more of a first gloved world champion than a last bareknuckle champion.
Sullivan needed to fight a bareknuckle LPR world title bout in order to gain acceptance and recognition as a true champion. However, Sullivan preferred gloves and Queensberry rules, saying, “They said that I was only a glove-fighter, and that I was afraid of the bare knuckles. For that reason I consented to fight Ryan as I did. I think I have proved that I can fight with my knuckles, and now anyone who wants to tackle me will have to do it my fashion.” Sullivan further said, “I will not fight again with the bare knuckles, as I do not wish to put myself in a position amenable to the law.” “Fist-fighting days are over with me. I have introduced the new rules of the fight into this country, and I intend to stand by them.” Sullivan could avoid traditional LPR prizefights because he had “succeeded in securing to himself the name of being invincible in a fight.” That meant future opponents would have to fight him with gloves under Queensberry rules. Still, critical purists remained, and eventually, in the late 1880s, Sullivan gave in to them by engaging in two bareknuckle prizefights. However, in the intervening six years, Sullivan was the Queensberry rules champion.

 

Sullivan fought at least seven more times in 1882, all with gloves under Queensberry rules. Most attempted to earn money (ranging from $100 up to $1,000) by surviving 4 rounds, but the only one who made it the full 4 rounds intentionally went down over 20 times to survive. Many simply “sought the glory of standing up before the champion of the world.”

Despite the advertisements, everyone knew that these were real fights rather than mere exhibitions, but called friendly sparring exhibitions for legal reasons. The New York Times wrote that the “pretence of calling it a glove contest was as thin as the gloves the men were expected to wear and deceived no one.” The “gloves are put on merely to evade the statute against pugilism.”

Sullivan made boxing popular despite its uncertain legal status. “There is no doubt that if the law did not prevent prize-fighting now to a large extent…about three-fourths of the population would turn out to see it.”

"Sullivan…has made a manly and most creditable effort to establish the practice not only of sparring, but of fighting with large gloves. The adoption of gloves for all contests will do more to preserve the practice of boxing than any other conceivable means. It will give pugilism new life, not only as a professional boxer’s art, but as general exercise."

In 1883, the 24-year-old Sullivan fought in at least six confirmed bouts.

From September 1883 to May 1884, Sullivan’s sparring company toured the entire country. He boxed almost nightly, allowing the public and the media to see just how good he really was, further growing his popularity. Folks throughout the country had the opportunity to get acquainted with the skill of boxing and the sport as a form of entertainment.

Sullivan had at least ten confirmed gloved Queensberry rules bouts in 1884. He offered his opponents $1,000 to last 4 rounds, but he stopped all of them within that distance, six of them in the 1st round.

Regardless of his immense popularity, Sullivan still had to deal with varying legal perceptions about his bouts. Although boxing was well-attended by all social classes and thoroughly covered by press, the political climate still resisted its acceptance. A strong segment of society that held politician’s ears remained staunchly opposed to the sport.

Unfortunately, politicians, police, judges and the law affected and influenced many Sullivan bouts. Legal authorities prevented several bouts from taking place. Sometimes the police arrested Sullivan beforehand and charged him with conspiring to create a breach of the peace. The police occasionally arrested Sullivan for violating the law after his sparring exhibitions. As boxers and politicians would learn, juries were often reluctant to convict Queensberry rules fighters. However, despite the reduced fear of conviction, no one wanted to go to jail, have to stand trial, and pay attorneys fees.Sullivan would occasionally have to hold back and not hit as hard or try to knock his opponent out, for fear of being arrested.

In late 1887, Sullivan set sail for England, beginning his long contemplated European tour. He appeared in England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, and France.

However, Europeans still considered an LPR fight the real thing. Therefore, on March 10, 1888, in Chantilly, France, Sullivan and Charley Mitchell fought a bareknuckle London rules fight for $2,500 a side. It was Sullivan’s first bareknuckle fight since the 1882 Ryan bout. They fought outdoors in the very hard cold rain, under muddy conditions in a 24-foot ring of soil pitched in the ground.

Mitchell used guerilla tactics, fighting mostly to survive, jabbing, moving around the large and muddy ring, grabbing, and occasionally intentionally going down and getting his 38 second rests, a technical violation of the rules which was usually overlooked and caused LPR bouts to last a very long time. Eventually, after 39 rounds lasting 3 hours, 10 minutes and 55 seconds, they agreed to declare the bout a draw because very little was happening at that point owing to the fighters’ fatigue, Sullivan’s hurt hands, and the very rainy, cold and muddy conditions. The day after the illegal fight, the two men were arrested, spent a night in jail, paid $600 bail for their release, and then left the country.

Sullivan fought and won an LPR fight with Kilrain in 1889, which was a huge fight, and lasted over 2 hours, but since it was illegal, Sullivan was arrested, stood trial and was convicted, and sentenced to one year in prison. He appealed and was released pending appeal, which he eventually won. He was reindicted, and plead guilty and paid a fine.

However, Sullivan’s legal and other expenses related to the case totaled $18,675. Prize-fighting simply was not worth it. He had trained long and hard, fought a brutal lengthy battle, and came away with no money to show for it. Sullivan said,

"reaking these particular laws has been very expensive to me, for in all the fights that I have been in under the London Prize-Ring rules, I have not only lost money, but have also had the care and worriment incidental to arrests, trials, and penalties. It has always cost me more money to get out of my fights under those rules than I have ever gained from them."

The very strong legal impediments explain the death of the London rules system. Sullivan was also happy to see the London rules disappear because he felt those rules did not allow for a legitimate, quick or entertaining determination of who really was the better fighter. The fights took too long, and their length did not depend on fighting ability with the hands, but on the tricks used. Bareknuckle boxing had existed in modern times for well over 170 years, but it was finished.

Few discuss just how many times Sullivan defended his title. If considered to have been champion since 1882, when he defeated Paddy Ryan, he made at least 33 defenses. In truth, he was the world’s best gloved fighter as early as 1880, but there were no gloved champions to dethrone.

"Sullivan was a strong advocate of glove fighting as he considered bare-knuckle fighting too brutal for true sport. His ambition was to see the ring uplifted and its standards raised to a good deal higher plane than those then prevailing."

Sullivan put boxing on the map as more than just a fringe sport. He was a star who sold gloved boxing as a legitimate sport and successfully brought it to new heights. Without being an immensely talented, exciting, dominant and active fighting machine for a decade, he could not have accomplished this.

One newspaper summarized Sullivan’s importance to the sport, saying,

"[H]e was the virtual inventor of the modern glove contest. He did better with the gloves than all his predecessors with naked fists and did as much execution with padded hands in four rounds as the old time fighter with ungloved battering rams in hours. He Americanized the manly art, deprived it of much of the brutality and made it possible to decide championships before athletic clubs under the best auspices, before classes of people who formerly took little interest in the sport. Nature intended him for a gladiator, and although he abused nature to a considerable extent not even the best trained rivals could defeat him… He stood out a central figure in the history of pugilism; attracted to him a following from every corner of the country."

John L. Sullivan revolutionized boxing.

 

I would say Sullivan should be considered gloved champion since 1880, but no later than 1883 when he stopped then English champion Charley Mitchell in 3 rounds. The public at the time considered him champ since 1882, but that was only because he beat Ryan in an LPR bout, which essentially legitimized his Queensberry rules fights. He blasted Ryan out so easily and was considered such a phenomenal dominant champion that he could fight under whatever rules he wanted and still pack in spectators. He literally mowed down all the best fighters around, including the Australian representative Herbert Slade in 1883 as well. Oh, BTW, before that fight, Jem Mace said, "I wish I was 40 instead of 50, so that I could enter the lists for the championship." It was later reported that Mace was willing to spar Sullivan, but only if John L. would promise to not knock him out, which John would not do.

 

Was it Sullivan vs Paddy Ryan? Or did they fight bareknuckle?

 

Sullivan - Ryan I in 1882 was bareknuckle. That fight legitimized Sullivan as the true champion in the general public's eye, because it was an LPR fight.

Even as of 1880, many recognized Sullivan as the best fighter in the world. After he stopped John Donaldson, the press highly complimented Sullivan as “a man who has probably no equal in the prize-ring today.” The locals also opined, “If the days of the prize ring were not gone by, Sullivan would stand at the head and front of the fraternity.”

Asking exactly when Sullivan became the gloved champion is like asking when a child should be recognized - at conception, at viability, or at birth. Is Sullivan champ when he was the best in the world, when he claimed to be the champ, when he was recognized as such by the press or the public, when he beat the next best guy out there, when he beat a title claimant, or when he beat the best fighters from each country? All a matter of perspective and open for debate.

I say you could recognize him as the champ as early as 1880 when he stopped Goss and generally was viewed as the best fighter in the world, 1882 when he stopped Ryan for the LPR title and gained general championship recognition as a result of proving himself under the traditional format against the then recognized LPR champion, or no later than 1883 when he beat Mitchell and Slade, the English and Australian challengers.

 

At this stage I cannot come up with a primary source from the Allen Goss fight that reffers to it as a fight for the "world title", but I can find primary sources that reffer to Goss and Ryan as "world champions" and being involved in "world title fights".

After the last Coburn fight there was an atempt upon Mace's life. After this he figured there was little future in defending his title, and left to live in Australia. After this he was seen as being out of the picture, and Tom Allen decided to try to establish his own title claim.

 

excellent stuff here! i need to get hold of that book!

 

Couple of things bother me on this, was the Sullivan-Flood fight not bare-knuckle?)I'm acting on memory here)
Secondly and more importantly, Sullivan was usually refered to as the American champion, when did this actually turn into the World champion?
Ryan held the American crown and John L didn't beat Mitchell or Jem Smith(the British claimants) in championship fights. Foley, Farnan, Lees, Slavin, Jackson, and Goddard were the top Aussies so when did he win the accolade of World champion?
Serious question as I admire Sullivan and think that from 1880 to 1887/8 he would be a cert to beat any fighter in the world under either set of rules or any hybrid either.