Superheavyweights...

Good point, I think the 15 rds would see a better trained heavyweight. Lets face it Eddie Chambers should have never came into the ring at mid 220-250 because he was out of condition, also if anyone can tell me Chris Areola and Sam Peter can not tighten up and drop 20-35lbs of extra luggage then I dont know what they see. As far as Big men, the best have been Lewis and the Klitschko's. I dont see any of the others that would stand a chance vs the ATG's.. Through out the yrs the Big men were Willard,Carnera, at the best. The others, Buddy Baer, Simon,Terrell, Whitaker,Briggs were fit but fell short to smaller Heavy's. We have also had our Flops ( Tye Fields, and other giants who are cannon fodder. I think the 15 route would force a Heavyweight to find his perfect weight to fight a solid 15 rds or fall short to a fighter that can. I think we would all learn a lot. Also a lot of these muscled up Crusierweights would proberly be light heavyweights or middles if they had to fight 15rds. I think the weightraining to some extent has its value but a lot of times it makes a fighter look like a heavyweight but not be one. Joe Louis had elite heavyweight power if he was transported via time machine, he would proberly add 20-30 lbs of weight and in Joe's case may add a bit to his power because he put his weight behind every punch. I think the 15 rds would sort out a lot of this and change long term in the ring strategy and training methods and would make for some interesting Championship (13-15) rounds and there would be a lot of suprises when things settle

 

Average height has gone up over the decades, I've posted graphs in the past showing this. Regardless there are far far more taller boxers in the last 20years than in the 50s that much is obvious.

Muscularity is another issue, but theres a reason why Moorer/Holyfield/Haye feel the need to bulk up, these men actually spar with heavyweights so know you need to be bigger and stronger to hold your own

If 180lb HWs arent at a massive disadvantage then why dont all the competant LHWs/Crusers move up to HW where there are better paydays to be had?

 

Larry Holmes said it good in a recent interview the Biggest strengths that the KLITSCKO'S HAVE is there conditioning, they are in shape when they begin there training. When you are in top form you can utilise your strengths, when you are in poor shape your weakness get unveiled

 

Chambers said that when he bulked up he thought he was going to get stronger, but he now realizes he didn't get any stronger, it was only holding him back.

 

Exactly, Why do you think Heavyweights of the 40' and 50's and 60's trained to make weight. Jersey Joe Walcott was ripped and muscled, he could have added 25lbs of muscle to his torso without looking out of shape but they knew the value of condition. Joe Louis had crushing late power and so did Marciano. Vlad and Vitali have shown late power ( Vlad in the 11th rd vs Peter and Vitali vs Donald,Bean and Purity...These are well condition big men 6'6 1/2 to 6"8 1/2and fight from 238-250 lbs...impressive but I am not so sure if we could transplant Joe Louis back from the 40's how good they would do against him...even Lewis, he was Ko's 2 time by men that did not come close in power to Joe Louis

 

I agree that size matters for the best against the best and that is the reason we have weight divisions ..however I do feel there were men from earlier eras that beat the Klitchko's without question. In addition, where does the size gap stop ? A 205 Louis, Frazier or Holyfield, a 215 All or Holmes, a 220 Foreman ?

Evander Holyfield is the perfect foil to this argument. Even at an old 37 he was able to trouble the best of the giants, Lewis. Little doubt in his prime he bets them all. Then it comes down to skill sets and styles ... Holyfield had an exceptional chin.

Whatever ... gotta run ...

 

Thats because he didnt know how to add functional muscle not only that he basically became fat. If you do the right exercises and get the right nitrogen retention you'll become stronger.

Bad Example

 

Those fighters were fine because they never had to fight any good big men. But mentioning Walcott he didnt do too well against a bigger man in Abe Simon did he? And he had his hands full against an old big man in Elmer Ray

I'd say McCall cerainly hit harder than Joe Louis, Joe Louis was a better boxer, far more accurate but McCall was a beast of a man and could really bang. Rahman is far bigger and stronger than Louis but has worse technique, hard to say

 

nba/nfl?

 

Exactly. A **** big guy beats a **** little guy.

 

What weight was Holyfield when he fought Lewis, though? 190lbs?

Chambers proved he can handle heavyweight power when he fought Peter, Povetkin and Dimitrenko without being hurt at any time in all those bouts.

Byrd got dominated. On paper he beat Vitali, but everyone knows its no more than a paper win and he only won a few rounds.

Oh please.... Golota is a statue these days and even lost to Austin in a single round. The fact that you're bringing this example up shows how desperate your point of view is.

Skill? Footwork, defence, textbook correctness (not required but always a plus), speed, combination punching, counter punching, etc.

Just watch the film man. The Baer brothers were ****ing horrible and Simon was even worse. Carnera, like i said, was decent, but still three leagues below Lewis/Klitschos/Bowe.

This is laughable strawman argument that fails on so many levels. Wlad's jab and right hand both are probably in the top10 of ALL time in terms of effectiveness (speed, power, timing, etc combined) and his left hook is a killer, too. Not to mention about his other abilities and intangibles. Such a pity that those thousands of journeymen and gatekeepers you are referring too, all had him beat in that aspect, but couldn't make it because they couldn't jab and grap. atsch

Sugarcoat and make excuses all you want.

FACT: No 190lbs boxer has had any decent claim to the heavyweight championship of the world since the early 60's.

He was a 215lbs man. How is that not big?

Oh, and he is 5'11. In a small pre-fight documentary during the late 80's, HBO had him walk up to a scale with no feet, and it showed him being 5'11 with his head slightly tilted - so probably closer to 5'11 1/2. I can post the picture if you want to.

All the talk of him being 5'9 is to increase the "David vs Goliath" story for drama related reasons.

Well **** me. You should write Holyfield a letter on how he could've beaten Bowe had he stayed at 190lbs. If you really believe that then i don't know what to say.

I don't really understand why you bring up stamina, either. He averaged 60+ punches a round against Thomas and Dokes at 205lbs. Against Bowe, a big man with skill who could bring it to him, he got very tired after only 6 rounds of easily outlanding the bigger man. By the 10th, he was basically spent and lost the fight.

For the rematch, he bulked up to 213lbs. He befinited from the extra weight (+having Steward in his corner), didn't tire and took the title back.

Again, did Moorer win the title at 190lbs? How many title defences did he make? Didn't he lose to that 44 year old who got shut out even by Tommy Morrison?

This is irrelevant to the scope of this discussion.

He SAID he bulked up but really he was fattened up. The only difference between him in previous bouts and right now is the 15lbs beer belly.

Since when do 190lbs athletes compete in the NBA/NFL?

And did you know there's a world outside of the US and A?

 

Do you really think the extra weight is helping Arreola and Peter, and that they are better off with the extra 20-30lbs of flab?

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A great point no one ever wants to address. In the US, they keep saying all the athletic talent has gone to the NBA and NFL. However, both leagues were in incredible vogue in the 80's and 90's, yet there were plenty of US contenders in the HW division. Also, you turn this argument on its head and ask, "Did boxing deprive football and b-ball of great athletes in the 70's? I really don't think Frazier, Quarry, Ali or later Tyson or Holyfield had the necessary skills to translate to the gridiron or hoop court. Of course, my evidence is primarily anecdotal (Frazier was bruisingly strong, Ali not fast of foot in the running sense, Tyson was notoriously clumsy out of the ring...).

People love to slag on today's HW division, which while not great has some potentially great match-ups to be made. The HW champions still make a lot of damn money. But there are two things which they are not... from the US and under 220 pounds.