Supposing Ali-Norton 3 had taken place in Manila '75

Maybe.

Anyway, Ali wins by controversial decision.

 

No, affairs between Ali and Norton were too tactical.

 

Yeah. Hatred was an important factor in Manilla.

 

I think Ali in some way felt genuine contempt for Joe, and I think he was outraged by the idea that this inferior Uncle Tom/Gorilla should even be considered his equal. That was not his whole attitude towards him, but I think it was there. I also think this underlying feeling of contempt made him underestimate Frazier, much to his own peril.

 

No difference basically. Norton was uniquely able to bedevil Ali whenever and whatever. A close, hotly disputed decision would have been the result in any case.

 

I echo Stevie's praise of your observations here, and what you say pinpoints one major difference between Ali-Norton III and Ali-Frazier III in Manila. When Cosell interviewed Muhammad on location, he noted that, "You seem to have a bit of a paunch, Champ," which Ali casually dismissed good humoredly. But with a weigh-in five days prior to the match, I wonder what his true weight was at fight time. For Norton III in Manila, he comes in at a weight closer to what he was for Kinshasa, up to ten pounds less than he was for Frazier III, maybe even lighter. There would have been no semblance of a paunch. (In fact, we might have even seen a six pack.) Words are one thing. If I was Frazier, I might be more insulted by the affront of a champion in less than peak physical condition for my challenge. Ali was in better shape for Leon Spinks II and Dunn than he was for Manila. Yes, his weight and actions during training say he took Frazier too lightly.

Smoke hadn't done much in the ring since the FOTC. Bugner recovered from a tenth round knockdown with a near one punch knockdown of his own about 30 seconds later, a shocking turn of events which would have been unthinkable in Frazier's prime. (Fortunately for Smoke, there were just ten seconds left in round ten. After Bugner's driving right buckled his knees, he wobbled sideways into the ropes where the round ended near his own corner with Bugner going at him.) Ali followed Bugner by similarly stunning Smoke near the end of round two with a sharp right of his own to open 1974. Frazier's punch resistance seemed to be in clear decline. Muhammad now knew he was capable of hurting Smoke. After Foreman, Wepner and Lyle, his confidence in his right hand power had to be at an all time high.

Going into Manila, many boxing scribes were sharply critical of Joe for his two fight per year pace, contrasting it very unfavorably with Muhammad's annual four fight championship average. (Never mind that two title fights a year was also Marciano's pace. Only a superhuman freak like Armstrong could combine a swarming style like that with high frequency of competition.)

Jerry Quarry II was a masterpiece, but it wasn't yet evident just how badly shot Jerry had suddenly become until Norton pummeled him into his first retirement in March 1975. (The devastating knockdown Joe Alexander inflicted on JQ proved to be no fluke.) A few weeks prior to Norton-Quarry, an aging and sputtering Ellis on a four fight winless streak took Frazier into the ninth round without being floored. The intelligence from Jimmy and Dundee had to be that Smoke was indeed washed up and very diminished. Ali was actually being charitably generous when he coined fight three "The Thrilla in Manila."

The FOTC was over four and a half years in the past. He was getting this title shot because he was Joe Frazier, and because the champion was a man he once defeated, not because of what he'd done in the ring since the FOTC. (JQ II was a big enough win though that Ali could have justifiably opened his second reign against Frazier in Cleveland instead of Wepner, or defend against Smoke in place of Bugner or Lyle. These things have to be built up properly though.)

If Norton had been Ali's challenger in Manila, Muhammad wouldn't have been coming in anywhere near 225. For Ken, he may well have scaled as low as 215. There's no possibility he underestimates Norton after getting his jaw fractured. Norton II was a grueling exertion for Ali, much more physically demanding than Frazier II, and he'd go into Norton III in Manila expecting nothing less. Muhammad's punch rate in Manila was probably the highest of his career. Wepner and Bugner II were of incalculable value in extending him. While his training for Manila wasn't first rate, his competition readiness compensated. For Norton III in Manila, his training definitely would have been first rate.

Norton would have never been an easy match for Ali, but Ali-Norton III in Manila would have been the most clear cut decision win Muhammad could have produced over Ken in the 1970s. Norton had no championship round experience prior to Ali III in 1976, while Muhammad's championship distance experience in late 1975 was immediate. When rounds 13, 14 and 15 rolled around, I think Ken would have conservatively taken his foot off the pedal, while Ali would have shifted into the overdrive he avenged his referee ruled knockdown from Wepner with. Ken would box not to lose, while Ali's pride pushed him to collapse after Wepner merely to avenge the insult of a referee ruled knockdown.

 

Stevie, I see it the same way Duodenom does. Ali would get into the best possible shape for Norton, and that best was clearly better than it was after the brutal showdown with Frazier and Inoki feasting on his legs.

I think he would have won a close but clear and indisputed decision over Norton had they met in 1975.

 

What Inoki did is familiar to us, but somehow not a part of the mainstream accounts. When Ali was hospitalized after Inoki, it was big news, and Ken sent Muhammad flowers and well wishes, which also garnered significant publicity. But Cosell largely wrote the story of Ali's career in the popular imagination, and did not include the foolish farce with Inoki as part of the tale with Manila.

How much did Manila really take out of him? His power looked fine against Coopman and Dunn. (He could have eliminated Dunn in two rounds, but carried him to meet a final prediction he and Dundee inscribed inside his gloves.) Does Evangelista go the distance with a pre-Inoki Ali? Muhammad came in at 221 for Evangelista, just a pound over what he did for Dunn. Take away Inoki, and maybe Norton III is a less controversial win for Ali. Maybe Shavers gets stopped. Does Leon Spinks take the title, or even last the distance? Does Holmes ultimately decision Ali for the undisputed title in late 1978 or early 1979, eventually sparing Tyson the need to reunify it? (And with an undisputed title, the pressure for Holmes to keep it consolidated would have meant defenses against most, if not all the contenders he's criticized today for not fighting.)

 

I agree with what has been said. Ali would have likely had his best chance to actually concretely and decisively best Ken had it gone this route. He'd have had most of the advantages.

 

Thinking out loud here, a known shooter like Inoki was a horrible choice for attempting a stunt like this. Japan was the last place Muhammad should have gone for such a performance, especially against a domestic favorite like Inoki. The man attempted hooking with Sammartino. Bruno may not have been the greatest worker, but he was and is a legitimate badass. Of course Inoki was going to try advancing his reputation at the boxing champion's expense rather than putting him over in Tokyo, if he'd already tried to test somebody like Sammartino.

The WWWF, AWA and NWA Champions at the time were Sammartino, Bockwinkle and Terry Funk. Any of those three would have behaved themselves and been a more sensible choice for such an exhibition. All were much better known in the States than Inoki, whose reputation was essentially made in the English speaking world by his peculiar selection for this event.

Ali's preference was to be the heel, which would make face Sammartino a better choice than heel Bockwinkle or tweener Funk. Terry could adopt a face role however, especially in the Astrodome, a Texas venue were Ali was already an established presence against the Big Cat, Terrell, Ellis and Mathis. Funk was indeed the face in defending the NWA Title against Muhammad's first mentor in this arrangement, the dreaded and hated original Sheik, Ed Farhat. (To this day, I don't know what the falling out between them was over. Originally, the notion that they were brothers in Islam was part of what brought them together, but I was just a kid reading the kayfabe Apter magazines at the time.)

Sammartino and Ali would have been monstrous in New York or Philly (where Frazier's fans obviously hated Muhammad), and there would have already been a built in rivalry aspect for Bruno with Fred Blassie having replaced the Sheik. (It was kind of weird seeing Blassie seconding Ali against Kenny Jay in the AWA with Verne Gagne as the referee, since Freddie was WWWF talent.) If Vince Jr. had already purchased the WWWF from his father, there's no way he would have let Ali-Sammartino get away. Bruno's experience sparring with Liston could have also been played up. Being a fan of boxing, I believe he would have been an excellent choice, the more I think about it.

While at first contemplating New York as a venue, it does seem more to me like Philadephia would be an optimal location, especially if a retired Frazier joined Arnold Skaaland in backing Bruno. (Joe later did participate in WrestleMania II as a face, just as Ali was involved in WrestleMania I. Smoke was still competing when Ali-Inoki was arranged, and it took place 11 days after Foreman battered Joe into retirement. If Muhammad could have waited until Smoke called it quits, then maybe the two of them could have arranged a lucrative "Fight IV" type of angle.)