The common and often repeated view in boxing is that swarmers beat boxers, boxers beat sluggers and sluggers beat swarmers. There are many examples of this. However it doesn't always work this way. A few examples of swarmers beating sluggers are: Roberto Duran-Pipino Cuevas Roberto Duran-Iran Barkley Dempsey-Firpo Chavez-Rosario My question is it seems swarmers who can adapt their style or have other tools such as counterpunching do very well, whereas those who are one dimensional like Joe Frazier and Ken Norton, get took. Any thoughts?
I agree with conventional wisdom - I am a straight up swarmer with a fair amount of speed and power, but much slower more rudimentary counter punchers who hit hard really disrupt my game, whereas my tall pure boxer friend has fits with me but has no problem fighting slower harder punching guys with a more measured pace, the same kind of guys that I have problems with. In general true, but yeah, different attributes can offset the stylistic rules. The swarmer doesn't care about waiting for the perfect shot so its hard to box them as long as their punch resistance and chin hold up, something the slugger can test with accurate punching, but he himself can be made to miss and look foolish by a pure boxer. anybody who tries to match my punch output and pace instead of picking their shots is in trouble when they fight me (on an amatuer level - of course not a pro). When Wily Wise tried to match Shane's work rate he sealed his fate for a quick KO. Always exceptions and obviously super talented guys overcome the stereotypes and have a style all their own, but in general I agree.
I really don't think Firpo is a slugger, at all. He was just a super tall South American heavyweight who fought in the era of fixes. He was a top 10 heavy when Dempsey beat him, but by no means close to top 5.
This is a hard thing to analyze, because they're other factors that can go into styles. I never liked looking at boxing like rock paper scissors, because there are more dimensions to boxing then just swarmer vs boxer and so on
Floyd Jr Bhop Whitaker vs Chavez! I remember reading Frazier's boxing instruction book. He wrote that styles don't matter much if you're good enough, Coincidentally, the styles make fight rule had Frazier's lost to Foreman as a textbook example of the rule.
For the most part, if they are fighters where they are elites and you know they can't be any better, I will go with the "styles make fights" saying because in a close, evenly matched fight that's what if might come down to. If one IS an elite fighter while the other isn't I can see where the ATG might have some problems, like JMM as a boxer did with Katsidis the brawler, but as an ATG it still shouldn't be a matter they can't handle because an ATG should have the experience to handle every style. Most people like to go with the boxer/puncher because they are a double threat and they tend to be speedy fighters, they bring the best of both worlds. The thing about Pacman just for conversation's sake is that you rarely see a slugger evolve into a brawler/volume puncher and then into a boxer. Having all those styles in your arsenal not only makes you more versatile, but I think helps the fighter understand all the strengths and weaknesses of all those styles. You'll know what works and what doesn't work so well vs. certain styles. If you watch closely Pacman has become a technician in a way by using angles and the counterpunching that he does is top knotch and it's something that would make Floyd and JMM proud. It's almost like Pacman got it out of their book. And despite Pacman not having a long reach or a jab as a main weapon, I still think of him as a technician with the use of his footwork and the angles he uses. Take away the power and speed and you still have an awkward fighter that's hard to catch and hard to beat. That's just one of many things that make him so special.
What exactly is a "brawler"? I always thought it was the same as slugger, but I've seen it used for swarmers, sluggers, and even boxer-punchers. Only style I never seen the brawler label touch is boxer.
Slugger and brawler are the same thing. I think people might sometimes use the word brawler to indicate dirty tactics or higher workrate, but i basically view them as the same ****.
