Taking a look at Monzon's six best wins

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Mendoza, Aug 12, 2018.



  1. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    These were not my top six picks, but I thought they were good enough to keep. While I do think Monzon belongs in the top ten at middleweight, I find him underwhelming at times on film, not flashing speed or one punch type of power, and winning because the shorter smaller guys could not deal with his jab, and size more than anything else. Sure he was an accurate puncher, and boxer with a good, but perhaps not great chin ( More on that later ) Carlos' top opposition was mostly, much smaller, on the slide or older than he was. I think almost all top ten middles beat the same guys, some would do it quicker without being hurt. A quick rundown:

    1. 1977: Rodrigo Valdez II - W-UD-15 - Valdez floored Monzon. A small middle ( former welter ) with a 69" reach

    2. 1970: Nino Benvenuti I - W-TKO-12 - Part-time playboy, who was on the slide before he fought Monzon, losing and drawing to name guys. A good win, however, but it should be put into perspective.

    3. 1971: Emile Griffith - W-TKO-14 Griffith was 35, and just 5'7" 1/2 inches tall. He moved up from welterweight.

    4. 1974: Jose Napoles - W-RTD-6 The cut prone Naploes was also 5' 7" 1/2 inches tall, best at welterweight.

    5. 1972: Bennie Brisco - W-UD-15 Brisco was 43-10-1. Another shot guy at 5'8" tall with a 71" reach, he was tailor-made for Mozon. He badly hurt Monzon in round nine and claims he was robbed in their first fight, which happened in Argentina, Monzon's home country.

    6. 1972: Denny Moyer - W-TKO-5 Another short middle 5'8 1/2", Moyer had a very spotty record of 83-22- 4 and wasn't a puncher either. He fell in 5, but a the time the fight with Monzon was even
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2018
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  2. The Morlocks

    The Morlocks Boxing Addict Full Member

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    So how many of Carlos' fights in Argentina have you seen before he won the title. Records are deceiving so tell me about his comp. Or are you just going to dismiss 89 fights with nary a view or read account? Yeah, I thought so. 64-77 without a loss to anyone. A lot of fights. A lot of fighters who would give anyone a hard time. You don't know. But 64-77, beating a great power guy like Valdes in the very twilight of your career is impressive.
    A lot more so than fighting nonmiddlleweights yr final 3 years and losing to a welterweight who fought once in 5 yrs. And btw, Valdes proved he levels better than Haglers big Philly opponants from 76-78. 72 Briscoe has a real chance of beating 78 Hagler. Jees 78 Briscoe completely finished had Hagler running like a dog.
     
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  3. salsanchezfan

    salsanchezfan Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Quite literally the only time I've ever seen it suggested that Valdez and Griffith were lesser pelts because of their size. Come off it, you're better than that. Anyone's better than that.
     
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  4. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    Using an older Monzon's best wins post, which many liked, Vale and Griffith are top rated pelts.

    Well Valdez was small with a limited reach, yet he did floor Monzon.

    Griffith also small, short ( 5'7" 1/2 ) and old ( 35 )
     
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  5. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    Are you suggesting Argentina wasn't favorable to Monzon, their favorite son? If anything, I think he benefited from fighting there I'll stand that the best competition at middleweight at the time was the USA, not Argentina.

    To quote Brisco who drew with Monzon in Argentina if you draw in Argentina, ( As a foreigner ) you won. If you can post this film, I will watch and score it. Deal?

    Assuming there was some home cooking in the draw, Monzon's streak without a loss shrinks considerably.

    Valdes by the way was a welter who moved up. What did he weigh on fight night? Under 160?
     
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  6. scartissue

    scartissue Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Mendoza, the tone of your post smacks of someone who is simply trying to demean all of Monzon's opponents and Monzon himself. Your last statement that he was feasting on small guys and those little guys would have been beaten by other top ten middles. Who? The 5'8 Greb, the 5'7 Walker or the 5'8 Fullmer? This was the size of a middleweight. It was Monzon who was the anamoly. Before reading your post I put together my own top 6 before reading and I had 5 of your 6. I omitted the Moyer fight because on all accounts that was a premature stoppage and I didn't feel it was as good as the first fight between Monzon and Valdes, which takes me to your points.

    1) Why did you use the second fight rather than the first fight? In the first fight Valdes was WBC champ and this fight was for all the marbles. Plus, Monzon dropped Valdes, yet you used a fight where Valdes was an ex-champ and dropped Monzon. You made a point to mention Griffith's age (although wrong), but did not mention Monzon was almost 35 and having his last bout. I personally included both Valdes fights because Rodrigo was that good.

    2) I agree to a point, but Nino was still top dog and no one knew who Monzon was. He came out of nowhere. Euro papers the next day did not say 'Monzon wins', they said 'Benvenuti loses', because no one knew who Monzon was.

    3) Emile Griffith was not 35 he was 33 and he didn't just move up from welter, he was a former 2 time middleweight champ who was on a 10 bout unbeaten streak and suffered only his second stoppage loss in his career. A brilliant win.

    4) Jose Napoles - this was the fight everyone wanted to see and I was stunned seeing Napoles being pulled on his stool. This was a fantastic win. And I've always said a lot is made about Napoles blood-letting, but he didn't really open up until the Monzon fight. Carlos shredded him and then Muniz took it from there. Prior to the Monzon shredding, I know of him cut 4 times. The LC Morgan loss, the 2 fights with Backus and the second fight with Lopez. If there are more, I don't know about them.

    5) Bennie Briscoe - making light of Bennie Briscoe is unworthy of you. I lived through this entire era and believe me, Briscoe was the most feared middleweight around. There was nothing tailor-made about Briscoe for anyone wearing gloves. Monzon had to stay focused for 15 rounds to make it to the end - taking his eye off the ball once in the 9th - and that is championship material.

    In closing, I'm not some Monzon flag-waver, but I recognise what he did with the tools he had. He was not some master-boxer, he was a guy who used his size and leveraged arm length to ultimate advantage. He really only had a jab-jab- straight right to his arsenal, but had it down pat. And these wins were top-notch. Also, I would have also been including his win over Mundine, but Briscoe ruined his aura of invincibility a few fights earlier. Prior to Tony's bout with Briscoe, Ring mag ran a headline saying, 'Continental experts see Mundine replacing Monzon'. That's how every scribe was perceiving Tony at this time, but Briscoe took the luster off Monzon's win over Tony.
     
  7. salsanchezfan

    salsanchezfan Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Horsesh/t. Wonder what Richard Tiger, as strong a middle look right as has ever lived, thought of the "smallness" of Griffith.

    Incorrect. Try again.
     
  8. salsanchezfan

    salsanchezfan Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Sorry, that reads badly. I despise typing on a phone. As long as the "hosesh/t" part was understood it's fine.
     
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  9. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    Well, I can tell you what the press thought.

    That was Tigers last fight. He could have had cancer at the time for all we know.

    I would't use that fight to prop up Griffith at all.

    Griffith was best at welter, would you agree? He also lost 24 times and drew twice.
     
  10. salsanchezfan

    salsanchezfan Boxing Junkie Full Member

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  11. Skins

    Skins Well-Known Member Full Member

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    There's a new doc. on Monzon just popped up on you tube. 10 minutes long in english. Looks pretty good
     
  12. salsanchezfan

    salsanchezfan Boxing Junkie Full Member

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  13. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    Full disclosure I'm not a Monzon fan in or out of the ring, though I do think he belongs in the top ten of the history of the division.

    It seems that every modern fighter, regardless of weigh class is harpooned with their competition, so I thought let's examine Monzon's who has been a popular topic as of late. Greg, Walker and Fuller were natural middles.

    I find Monzon's top competion in many cases to be welters who moved, up, guys on the decline, or older.


    These were not my personal picks for his best wins, they were another posters. Many here seemed to like them so I decided to use them to absolve myself from bias. I do think Valdes was the best overall opponent Monzon beat, but I'll stand that he was short, with a limited reach. Wouldn't all top middles beat Valdes too? I think so, outside of Ketchel.

    Griffith was 35 when he fought Monzon. Monzon was 30 for that fight.



    .

    We agree. Nino was a top dog, but also in decline. A natural middle, its an important win for Monzon. Were there any natural middles with ability that Monzon fought? Or were his best wins all shower sometimes older guys moving up in weight?



    I checked. 35.

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    Jose was too cut prone and small. He wasn't real fast either, best described as smooth.

    I'll take your word for that he was feared, as I was took young to see it, but he was also 43-10-1 going into that fight. 11 fighters didn't seem to fear him that much. Lots of losses here. He's more of a shorter slugger type. Sadly a fancy boxer.

    In closing, I'm not some Monzon flag-waver, but I recognise what he did with the tools he had. He was not some master-boxer, he was a guy who used his size and leveraged arm length to ultimate advantage. He really only had a jab-jab- straight right to his arsenal, but had it down pat. And these wins were top-notch. Also, I would have also been including his win over Mundine, but Briscoe ruined his aura of invincibility a few fights earlier. Prior to Tony's bout with Briscoe, Ring mag ran a headline saying, 'Continental experts see Mundine replacing Monzon'. That's how every scribe was perceiving Tony at this time, but Briscoe took the luster off Monzon's win over Tony.


    I see it as he was durable, much bigger and younger than many of his top opponents who could not get pas this jab and grinder them down. All top natural middles I think would have does the same, and some would have had shorter nights.

    If Monzon faced a middle near his size with power or speed, I have a hard time finding that name on his resume.
     
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  14. Man_Machine

    Man_Machine Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Bar, the point about Monzon's armory, I agree with pretty much all of this. The first Valdes bout and the Mundine fight deserve to be in there, for sure.
     
  15. Man_Machine

    Man_Machine Boxing Addict Full Member

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    The link points to their bout in '73; not the one you originally listed, which took place in '71.


    Try this one, instead:

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