Valdez a small middle? 5'9.05". 159.0.75lbs He was actually a quarter of a pound heavier than Monzon for their first fight and needed 6 tries to come in under 160pounds! For their second fight he was a pound lighter than Monzon at158lbs.This is the guy you once tried to tell us wasn't a puncher in a previous thread also denigrating Monzon in which you said he never faced punchers remember! Bouttier 5'9.5" Level weights 1st fight 0,75lbs lighter 2nd fight. Tonna 5'9.5"Tonna was 0.25lbs heavier Licata was 0.25 lbs heavier Mundine 5'10"0.5lbs lighter Big Puncher 67ko% 64kos in 80 wins. Benvenuti 5'11" Level weights for 1st fight 0.5lbs heavier for the 2nd had lost 2 fights in the last 3 years one of them to Dick Tiger and had ko'd Luis Rodriguez. Middleweight greats who were at or under 5'9.5" Ketchel 5'7" Greb 5''8" Walker 5'7" Zale 5'7.5" Lamotta 5'8" Tiger 5'8" Hagler 5'9.5" Kalambay 5'9" Griffith 5'7.5"
using your logic, the result should read Hearns KO 3 Hagler what went wrong? was it Tommy's leg massage. Perhaps? how abut that injured baby pinky from 1982 re aggravated. yes?
personally I think Monzon would have lost to Marvin, Tommy, and Roy Jones, and even Micheal Nunn (1989 version)
they just didnt have quality middleweights in the early 70s. thankfully, a new crop emerged in the second half, younger, with some actual talent, fresher, craftier, more versatile, faster, smarter, and more tenacious
Yes, Valdes was a small middle, a blow up welter! Valdes was 5'9 " tall with a very limited 69" reach! Can you show me one natural one middle of top ability with that short of reach ( 69" ) and was 5'9" tall or under that fought in the 1950's to current? I think I clearly stated the facts, Moznon a larger middle weight fought many shorter and smaller men moving up in weight class, most of whom were on the slide. What's I'd like to know is Valdes weight on fight night. I suspect its MUCH lower than what we see today at middle weight.
I think you might have a problem seeing dominance and then extrapolating, he makes them look bad, but they look very different when they fight other competition. Oddly enough I have seen some mention that Monzon and Vitali share some similarities. A few major differences, Vitali has a much better rounds won to round lost ratio, NEVER LOST or DREW to non-top ten fighters, and was never floored by anyone, let alone smaller men as Monzon was. He also fought at a much older age with top results.
MM, I've got 20/15 vision, it appears what I see and report cannot be debated here by many, so pivoting away from the subject material, or switching all together to another fighter not in the thread it is the modus operandi. My suggest for your prescription is to say your correct and acknowledge points made, that is you if rather have your objective reasoning trump rule over fan flavored replies. Monzon beat smaller men, some on the slide as stated. If 14 title defenses is great ( I agree ) then why does the same standard not apply to GGG, who as I clearly showed you beat better fighters than Moznon lost or drew to, was never floored, beat top competition at al older age, and as of 8-13-18 is still undefeated. Like I said, I started this thread because I see too much of this on modern fighters, and too little of the same examination on fighters from 30+ years ago. If you want to talk skills, GGG hit harder for sure, took a better punch, and IMO has a better jab. Put in some blown up welters or jr middles past their prime as Monzon often feasted upon, and you’ll get a GGG vs Vanes Martirosyan video game type of knockout, which leads me to this point. Monzon to me is neither fast or flashy on film. He’s a grinder type who used a considerable height and reach advantage. His conditioning was partly due to his younger age. Monzon’s longer jab and a sold power wear the other guy down. If he fought a top ten natural middleweight of ability in his prime, please tell me who that was. Maybe he could have beaten someone with his size who also had skills, but it was never proven.
While I agree Monzon is overrated, and I pick some fighters to beat him... The thread is a little too biased to drive that point home appropriately imo.
Well we can start out with Roy Jones for openers : ) I would say Monroe and Mugabi were two middles in their prime, perhaps better than any natural middle Monzon beat, and before you mention Benvenuti, he was on the slide before he faced Monzon, and after he faced him. As for guys Hagler defeated moving up in weight both Hearns and Duran were a class above the welters or jr, middle types that Monzon defeated. Agreed? While Halger did lose narrowly to Leonard, he was out negotiated, letting Sugar Ray's team pick the ring size, and limiting the rounds to 12 rather than 15 in exchange for more money. It may be a surprise to you, but I don’t think Hagler beat a top group of top natural middleweights either, but I would say his opponents were better than Monzon’s in terms of natural middles fought and guys moving up in weight class.
Hey mendi keep repeating your bullcrap ideas like a mantra and someday you will convince yourself it is true. Fights over bub. You lost.
You can't change history or the facts I listed. Why is that? Once you can, only then will you " win " , but as you can see I'm pretty well researched.
Valdez was 5' 9'5"and the heavier man for the first Monzon fight, he needed 6 attempts to come in under the midlleweight limit.You're spouting nonsense,just like you did when you said he wasn't a puncher! "Most of whom were on the slide" Licata no5 Bouttier no 4 & no 5 Tonna no2 Valdez no2 & no 1 Briscoe no7 Griffith no1 & no2 He had 11 straight wins behind him.Including a victory over Dick Tiger 9 months earlier. Benvenuti no1 Bogs went from middle to lhvy Mundine went from middle to heavy Bouttier Briscoe Licata Tonna Were career middleweights. Valdez fought at welter in the beginning of his career Sam Langford fought as lightweight at the start of his. Dempsey at167lbs. Johnson the same, Tunney at middleweight would you call them them blown up versions of those weights when they were prime? Of course not! Your obvious agenda here is quite absurd! Every statement you made is false!
You DUCKED my question. Which top middle from 1950 to current was 5'9" or under, AND had a 69" reach or less. I could type this in 10X and You'd still duck it. Like I said he was a small middle weight. Valdez could hit for his weight, but he was also a blown up welter weight. His lowest listed weight as a pro was 138 pounds, so you could say he was a blown up jr welter.
