Teach me about Marvin Hart

Yeah , you're right they were a couple of bums.

 

If playing it safe and not being a knockout artist means you can't fight and can't be a champion, then Bernard Hopkins was nothing. Yet, hmm, didn't he win a hell of a lot of title fights against the best in the world...and is still doing it in his late 40s. Seems odd. Same with Johnson.

I can understand disliking that style, but you cannot dispute its effectiveness.

Oh, and look at the source - Georgia, a great fan of the black man back in 1905, no?

However, this is one of the criticisms lodged against Johnson. He was cautious, defensive, minimalist, and was content to simply outbox his foes.

 

Yes, folks, I posted this because I agreed with it.

Or perhaps, I posted it because of how hilariously wrong-headed and more than a hint of something else (Georgia?) that it represented. Sometimes you come across these things in research and feel like sharing a good chuckle.

 

Yes, given how wrong it turned out to be, it is funny. Opinions are like A-holes. Everyone's got one. Some will be right, some will be wrong. That's why they have to get in there and fight it out.

 

If Johnson didnt like the scenario he could have walked away.

 

Oddly, it does hint at the reason he was not always a crowd-pleaser and referee pleaser. He was more of a controller/operator utilizing his comparative strength advantage. Color aside, people wanted another John L, not this new-fangled, safety first approach.

I'm glad we don't live in such times.

 

Yes, guys like McVey and Langford were much more fan friendly. Problem for them, like many offensive fighters today, is that when the Pavliks and the Trinidads or Frochs of the world get in there with the Hopkins or Andre Ward types, they usually lose. Same thing with McVey and Langford. Great when they are in there with someone who will duke it out, but when they go with a clever defensive master with speed and strength, it's suddenly a whole different ball game.

 

You wouldn't dare say that if Mendoza was on line.:nono Hurry up and finish that book.

 

From John L to Wlad K, progression.

 

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I would be careful in comparing Johnson to Hopkins. Hopkins hit fine for a middle weight, and wasn't shy about facing the best out there.

Johnson, who often had a height, weight, and experience edge did not hit hard enough, and did not seek out the best competition as champion.

When Johnson was matched vs guys near his size, who had experience and can hit, his results are mixed.

 

Moran, Jeffries, Kaufman, Ferguson, Martin, Klondike, Munroe were pretty big, Had experience...results not mixed except maybe the early Klondike affairs?

 

Adam,

McVey was a teenager in the first two matches with Johnson and only 20 in his third match.

Langford was only 156 pounds, and according to Clay's book 20 year old.

Upon close examination, these victories for Johnson are not that impressive. Both McVey and Langford were no where near their primes as heavyweights. IMO, this footnote should be mentioned in any book, but it isn't. You have a chance to break new ground if you choose.

To compare and contrast very young fighters to seasoned pro's suggesting styles was the reason for the results seems a bit unfair.

If you really want to compare styles, an aggressive swarming attacker type, usually beats the boxer types...especially if the aggressive swarming type has the edge in power and chin. Examples Maricano over any boxer he faced, or Frazier over any boxer he faced.

If Hart was able to out work Johnson, Langford as a mature heavyweight with far more skills, power, and the equal stamina and aggressiveness would do what to Johnson? Earn a UD or KO if you ask me.

 

Well, actually, McVey had more experience than folks realize. The primary sources said he was 14-0 with 14 KOs, and they were calling him the Oxnard wonder. He already had a big following and the news reporters were very high on him, saying he and Johnson were the two best black fighters. They were saying he was a real powerful talent. He was like the up and coming Mike Tyson. He was a big strong, muscular 220-pound guy with a heavy punch, and had knocked out Fred Russell, a well respected fighter, amongst others.

Even assuming Langford was that small, the size difference between when he was 156 and Johnson was 185 would have remained the same or have been even larger when Johnson was champion. Johnson regularly weighed 210-220 as champ, whereas Langford was rarely more than 180 and effective. True Langford got better as a heavy, but he had at least 50 known fights when he went up against Johnson, so he was no novice. Johnson got bigger and stronger too. Most said Langford would give Johnson a real test. True. But you'll find very few experts back then who said they actually thought Langford would win.

 

Adam,

Have you seen McVey on film? He wasn't close to Tyson in terms of skills, speed, hitting power, versatility, etc.. Mcvey was a one armed hooker, and and predictable. He did not apply near the pressure Tyson did.

The comparison to Tyson is a real reach. In fact, I was disappointed when I saw McVey, as he shied away from contact after being hit in the Battling Johnson match. Even if McVey was 14-0 at age 20, its news to me if he had any amateur experience. McVey was much better in say 1908-1915 while Johnson was champion.

I would term Fred Russell as a Journeyman. His record was 14-7-3, or just 14 wins in 24 fights. He lost to the better fighters he fought, and was often beaten by smaller men.

Regarding Langford, he did not have much experience at heavy at all and was only 20. His body was a far cry from the Boston Terror he would become a few years later. As you move up the scales 30 pounds means less. Very few middles can beat a heavy, but there are plenty of cruisers that can beat small heavies.

In sports, age 19 and 20 do not compare to say 25-31. Bones harden and the body matures in the mid 20's. Teenagers in almost all cases just aren't ready for prime time in any contract sport, let alone a contact sport.

 

Was Johnson near prime when he thrashed McVey 3 out of 3?
Near prime when he knocked Langford down for two slow 9 counts?

Langford improved, but Johnson didn't? :think

Langford was far more the seasoned pro than Johnson was.
Langford was best around 175-180lbs ,24lbs max more than when he fought Johnson .
Johnson said he was at his best when he beat Jeffries , for which he wieghed 208lbs , 23lbs more than he scaled for Langford.
Langford of course had more fights under his belt.
The best boxer Frazier faced beat him 2 out of 3.
Maricano? Is that a cocktail?:huh
Dempsey lost 2-0 to Tunney.
Bonavena lost to Ali.
Nelson lost to Gans.
Kansas lost to Leonard.
Graziano lost to Robinson .
So did Lamotta
Petrolle lost to Ross
I could go on, but you get the picture.

ps.
Just read a quote that Langford made in 1907 at the NSC, after koing Tiger Smith in 4rds.
One of the very impressed members called out for "three cheers for the real heavyweight champion",[Tommy Burns was of course the champ,].Langford interrupted him stating ,"say Boss , that's not me , there's a Big Smoke back home called Jack Johnson who is unbeatable, he licked me in Massachusetts last year ,and he's improving every month". The quote comes from James Butler who was there, and who was also there when Langford beat Hague.