Teach me about Marvin Hart

Why don't you list the ages and amount of fights between Johnson and McVey when they meet, and you'll see who had the clear advantage.

Yes, in 1906 when Johnson meet a then 20 year old 156 pound Sam Langford, Johnson was close to his prime as a heavyweight, however Langford was not.

This should be obvious. But just in case its not, Johnson was 28 years old when he meet Langford. You would be hard pressed to say Johnson at age 28 was not near his prime. In fact he had already boxed for 9+ years!

 

MET NOT MEETatsch HOW MANY TIMES!!!.
Langford had over 50 fights when he fought Johnson FACT.

Adam has just told you McVey had more fights than he is credited with, there is no argument here.
BTW McVey was formidable enough for Jeffries to give him a miss and ignore his challenge despite a very hefty guarantee of $20,000.

 

Details?

I don't remember this from Adam's Jeffries book. But that doesn't mean he did not address it.

 

http://cdnc.ucr.edu/cdnc/cgi-bin/cd...srpos=17&e=-------en--20--1--txt-IN-Sam+McVey


This was in 1903. $20,000!
Less than a year later Jeffries defended against no hoper Jack Munroe,and lost money on it.

 

Hindsight is a powerfull tool, but a lot of people at the time would have thought Munro a better challenger than McVea.

 

Yeah, if you were black, you had to be sterling to even be considered for an opportunity. Granted, McVea was uneven in 1903 but Munroe had hardly set the world on fire. I do like the guy who made his rep on Sharkey, Fitzsimmons and Corbett calling Johnson a "little fellow"... The hilarity never stops with Jeffries and his cadre.

 

When McVey ko'd Denver Ed Martin ,the promoter of that fight offered Jeffries a $20,000 guarantee to fight him .
Jeffries declined, his next defence was instead against 8-3-2 Munroe, the fight was postponed once because of poor ticket sales and Jeffries stated in print he lost money on the fight.
So the public could not have thought that much of Munroe's chances could they?

 

Jeffries was on record as refusing to defend the title against any black fighter, period, regardless of their ability, regardless of the amount of money offered. He was a pretty clear color line drawer when it came to giving blacks the opportunity to win the title. He said he didn't necessarily think they would beat him, but he also realized that every fighter was due to lose at some point, and if and when that point came, he wanted a white man to do it. He was not going to give a black man the opportunity to take the crown. Keep in mind segregation at that time was the norm. Boxing broke that norm to a large degree, but there were still many folks who followed it, particularly when it came to championship fights. There were only a few blacks given the opportunity at world titles. That does not mean there were no good black fighters. They just weren't given the chance. The fact that Jeff would not defend against McVey or Ed Martin or Jack Johnson is of no surprise. It was what it was, it was the norm, and it continued to be the norm after Johnson. Johnson was an anomaly that many thought was never supposed to happen. After him, they went back to business as usual.

 

There were certainly people who bought into the Munro hype.

I don't think that anybody picked him to win, but people said things like "this is a big young fighter who can punch, this might be an interesting fight".

 

" A big young fighter who can punch" Sounds just like Sam McVey.


Or should that read" A big young fighter who isnt much , but who is white?" :think

 

You would not think you would have to keep repeating Jeffries dogmatic stance on never defending against a black challenger, but apparently Mendoza is unconvinced .

 

And he was very young ( 20 year old ) had few wins at heavyweight, and was but 156 pounds.

McVey was also very young ( a teenager ), and lacked a win over in 1903 what would be viewed as a top 3 ranked guy.

At least Munroe had a story about him for lasting 4 rounds.

Mcvey did not have a lot of fans in the USA, and might not generate a big enough gate. There are 100's of offers for fighter A to meet fighter B. It only matters when the other guy is viewed as a top guy who has earned a shot. By 1903, Sam McVey had not earned a shot. By 1909-1915 he most certainly did.

 

Adam,

You're a smart guy. What fighters say and what they do when under the terms and conditions can vary. For example, Jeffries as championin 1901 did fight Hank Griffin in a 4 round affair. Griffin of course was black, so to say Jeffries as champion would not share the ring with a black guy is false. Had Griffin somehow managed to win via KO inside of 4 rounds, he's the next lineal champion, correct?

I think this is the best way to view. Johnson, who could be viewed as the #1 guy for a small window ( Say mid 1903 to his loss in 1905 to Hart ) wasn't going to generate a 1910 Reno like purse for Jeffries. However, had Jeffries gone broke in 1905, and that type of money was up and the other fighters were worth far less, you can't say for sure if he would take the match.

You could say the same for Tommy Burns. He wasn't making a lot of money in his title defenses, but when a big purse came up to meet Johnson, he broke the color line he held for years.

 

You have a point, sort of. The Griffin bout was billed as an exhibition, was only 4 rounds, and the terms were that Jeff would give Hank a bonus if he lasted the 4 rounds. No one saw Griffin as having even the remotest chance to hurt Jeff. He couldn't drop a novice Jeff when Jeff was in his first fight, let alone a seasoned veteran and champion. It was not a title fight. At that time, a title fight was 20 or 25 or more. So a 4-rounder was more like a sparring exhibition. Jeff was pretty clear that when it came to title fights, he was not going to defend against a black man. He said he preferred to retire than do so, and that's exactly what he did. He was still in his prime. Jeff also said that if he was not champion, he had no problem fighting a black man. Hence, he came back to try to recover the title from Johnson.

 

Johnson beat Hart.. and I don't care what the promoter in the ring using some lame criteria said won.