"Technique"

Here's a good break-down from Teddy Atlas of things you shouldn't do in the ring:

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I love the "sleepwalk" comment. I cracked up at that.

When a heavyweight boxer under assault, does the 'Y' in the YMCA dance, it's not good and time for the alarm bells to start ringing..

 

Two very good break-downs of the merits and perils of Ali's technique:

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Atlas reasoning is that Wilder will pay for that against better opposition.

If you watch the Ali break downs both show examples where Ali's habits cost him.

Thing is, a part of me love that stuff from Ali (not the Wilder examples, though, those are just examples of poor execution imo) because he is really walking along a razor's edge. When his speed and timing are just right it is thrilling and beautiful to watch, but when they're not I just feel frustrated and ultimately sad that he takes punishment he could have avoided, especially taking into account the brain damage he sustained.

I say nothing of this to put Ali down, because I have always loved him and still do. And I get great joy out of him pulling out these insane maneuvers, but at the same time I feel "damn, you'd be even greater and, more importantly, less damaged if you'd adopted a more textbook style".

 

I think we're talking about two different categories here:

Ali, RJJ, Nunn, Naz are examples of fighters with extreme natural talent that invented styles of their own. The positives with these styles are that they could confuse and frustrate opponents and and bait them into overreaching (personally, I think this can be done using traps with a more textbook style as well - PBF being a good example). The negatives is that there are no margins for error in these styles (text book technique is constructed with more fall backs) and that they often are more energy consuming than more text nook technique. For that reason these self-invented styles are somewhat found out against higher level of competition (Naz and you can argue the same for Nunn) or when the speed, stamina and reflexes they depend on fade with age (Ali and RJJ). That's been my argument all along, and I felt that the break downs of Ali's technique illustrated that quite well.

As for the case of the mistakes by Wilder that Atlas highlighted, those are just instances of bad balance and coordination imo. I think Wilder would rather do without them. So far his speed, power and size has compensated for the fact that he doesn't have the best technique, but he has yet to face a top 5 fighter so it's too early to say how he will do against top opp. If he faces Joshua, my guess is that they will be separated by Joshua's better technique, but Wilder's power is enough to throw everything on its head at any given moment.

 

I don't always agree with, or even understand, some of your views, Rez, but a lot of that made absolute sense. Good technique, as I understand it, is maximising your strengths. It would be poor technique to do what has always been regarded as textbook if it minimised your effectiveness.

Charley Goldman explained to AJ Liebling that he was scared to show Marciano too many orthodox boxing manoeuvres in case it impeded Rocky from doing what he was doing and, judging by results, doing effectively.

As you have said, Ali would have learned boxing techniques as a kid but as he evolved, he may have found they curtailed his ability to jab and throw combinations on the move, the very thing that made him special, and decided against using them.

 

To give credit where due, you actually did two posts previously. Magnificent post.

Most out of character.

 

I just agreed with Reznick's view and though it is in contrast to yours, Bokaj, I also see a lot of sense in what you say.

A higher guard would have protected Ali from danger when his speed had left him. But it may have hindered him from fully capitalizing on his extraordinary speed when he had it. He may have been a good fighter for longer but would he, had he relied on taught technique rather than instinct, have ever been great?

As a trainer, your role, imo, is to get your fighter to win and I feel that trainers should therefore make the fighter the best they can be with the gifts or limitations they, that is, the fighters, have.

Now if that means that you are leaving that fighter vulnerable further down the road when their reflexes dull, that's a decision to take. Without his superlative speed, given his low guard and other shortcomings such as lack of body punching which a good trainer should have instilled, Ali avoids a lot of punishment and wins fights like the Norton or Young fights more convincingly but he may do that at the cost of never having been the amazing fighter he was. Do you want to burn brightly but briefly?

Lacking the technical style to avoid punishment may not be the fault of the trainer if that trainer decided that to instill traditional disciplines would be to the detriment of his fighter's effectiveness. If the fighter goes on to take punishment later in his career, then that is where the manager should earn his 33% and get his man out of the way of danger.

This has been a top thread, by the way, with really good opinions and respectful debate when those opinions are different. I've found myself swaying between the two. Great stuff.

 

Pleasure, Rez. Hope you find that video.

I've been thinking about this and I'm going to liken Ali to Oasis. (I think we agree that traditional techniques should only be eschewed by the truly exceptional eg Ali, Jones and Marciano when the pros of what they are god at outweigh the cons of their traditional technical flaws).

Liam Gallagher rasped when he sang and that damaged his throat. It was an unsustainable method of singing that a voice coach would have tried to 'correct'.

But that voice, while it was only at its best for a few years, was the maverick piece in the jigsaw that made Oasis so great. Had Liam ever been taught to sing correctly, would we ever have heard of Oasis?

Bloody hell. What have I been smoking?

 

The greatest defensive boxers ever to live fought with hands low. Tunney, Ali, Pep, Benny Leonard, Loughran. Endless list.