Teddy Atlas says Tyson isn’t close to being an All Time Great [2017]

Roberto Duran quit in his second fight against Leonard when he was still very formidable. Should we say he's not an ATG?

George Foreman quit against Muhammad Ali in Kinshasa. He made virtually no effort to protest the stoppage or resume fighting after being knocked down and was very accepting of defeat to a man he was supposed to blow away. He threw everything he had and when he got knocked down he didn't make any effort to get up and win. Should we stop calling him an ATG?

The point is, if you're going to judge a fighter by only using some low points of his career then you can find flaws in just about everyone.

 

As mentioned the worlds hwt championship was always held to a higher standard.

You can’t rate a hwt champion who quit on his stool giving up the most prized trophy in all of sports right along side those that fought tooth and nail in order to keep it.

Foreman was counted out. There was no chance of the bout “resuming”.

 

When did he actually quit on his stool and give up his titles?

 

With Tyson it falls along similar lines. Tyson had numerous legacy bouts where he was being beaten against top opposition and instead of trying hard to win he appeared to become a much more passive version of himself. Douglas, Holyfield 1, Holyfield 2, Lewis, These were bouts where historians were watching LOOKING for Tyson to rise up in a bout where he was being bested and win. Instead he more or less passively went out with a whimper. If you listen in on Tyson’s corner in-between rounds for his bout with Lewis you hear Tyson telling his corner he wanted to quit and his handlers admonishing Mike “don’t do this!”. Then of course you have the last few bouts of his career where he quit. Granted this was a way past it Tyson and if these were the only issues I’d give him a pass. However when you put it all together what you have, the only conclusion one can draw, is a fighter unable to handle adversity.

That all being said Tyson was a force of nature at his best. Very dominating. He just could not handle being dominated.

 

That's a funny take on the ending of the fight.
To virtually everyone else it looked like an exhausted dazed Foreman was completely out of gas, hit with some sharp right hands, knocked down on his back, tried desperately to beat the count and was counted out while getting up.
(Pretty much like Tyson was against Douglas.)

 

So a welterweight who quits can be an ATG but a heavyweight who quits can’t?

 

Surely the case of Roberto Duran is completely different (to Tyson's and most others) since Duran's achievements (over a 20 year span and several weight class, and against highest quality fighters) are generally considered to be so overwhelmingly special that his all-time greatness survives the fall-out of the shocking bad quit job he pulled.

The case of MIke Tyson. Well, he's not good comparable achievements, or longevity. He had comparable FAME (and even greater fame, arguably) but I can't see how he's going to be compared in greatness as a boxer to Duran.
I think even Sangria and sauhund would stop well short of claiming Tyson's greatness even close to on par with Duran.

 

It would be determined case by case. Certainly any fighter without the ability to persevere cannot be rated very high. “Heart” is a paramount characteristic for any fighter.

 

Tyson had allot of dog in him. Start beating him up and he became a very different fighter. Not so with Durán. Durán had many tough fights and only had that “mistake” vs Leonard.

 

The larger point was most people see it for what it was, myself included, which you accurately described.

The 'funny take' that I put on it was deliberate; this is how the Teddy Atlases would describe it, if it were Tyson in there instead of Foreman.

 

Love it Rez.....keep 'em coming...Lol.....

 

Tyson kicks your ass.. he's got you...you get hit...then hit him back and he's thinking,:"What do I do now?".....like Sonny Liston...(here we go)...you can get into their heads...."AKA"....not mentally tough....

 

Sometimes when a fighter falls short, they fall short.

Against Douglas: He was getting beat from pillar to post round in and round out. There wasn't an ounce in quit in him in that fight. He continued to press the action, albeit unsuccessfully, but he came awfully close to closing the show in the 8th round via a right uppercut. The 9th round shows Tyson resuming with a bit more bounce in his step than previous rounds but his eye was swollen and Buster was still very fresh suggesting that the effects of the knockdown may have worn off. Buster closed the show but even on the canvas he didn't stay down, he went for his mouthpiece instinctively, suggesting that he was mentally ready to resume the action. He was pretty much out of it.

Against Holyfield 1: He fought to win. He was outboxed and outfoxed by what was the better man in the ring that night. He took took his beating like a man but he never stopped trying.

Against Holyfield 2: He disgraced the sport and himself. But I don't believe he was trying to quit. He was retaliating from what he felt was cheating from Evander Holyfield. It was wrong but I suspect he probably thought his stature as a popular Heavyweight Champion would afford him a more accommodating response. I don't think he expected to get disqualified, not with all that money on the line in a fight that huge.

Against Lewis: He was discouraged but if he wanted to quit he sure took way more punishment than necessary. There is only a handful of opponents at the age of 36 that would have fared better against the version of Lewis he faced.

You seem to define heart as getting off the floor to win a fight as opposed to acknowledging that for a fighter like Mike Tyson to get where he's gotten, with his life story being as troubled as it was, didn't have any heart.

 

No. There is a difference in out and out quitting and ceasing to fight a fight to win. Tyson when intimidated became a very different fighter. It’s the reason he is not rated higher than he is. It’s his Achilles heel.

 

Rez....absolutely perfect and on the money. I honestly feel there should be section of this board for only those serious to investigate past bouts. This Dempsey Sharkey bout in 1927 is a prime case.