Tell me about Holmes vs Ali please

Nailed it. However it came to be, it was the perfect motivation for Mike, the type of motivation he absolutely thrived on.

 

And to think it got even worse for SRL…the Camacho fight, awful. There are certainly fights one doesn’t want to revisit too often, if at all.

 

Yeah, to be clear, however you view Holmes performance/intent, he did absolutely nothing wrong - sans illegalities, Larry was free to fight it as he pleased.

Not quite the same but Henry Cooper called BS on Ali when Muhammad claimed he backed off when he saw how badly Henry’s eye was cut. In Cooper’s opinion, Ali went in even harder when the blood was really pumping and Cooper was virtually blinded - targeting the cut in particular.

Again, it wasnt wrong for Ali to do what he did and I don’t think Cooper was complaining his actions, rather, he contested Ali’s sincerity in claiming he held back.

 

Scary when Ali admitted after the fight that he was exhausted after just the first round - thinking, “My God, how am I going to last another 14 rounds if necessary?”

Re Tim Witherspoon, I believe Tim said he saw clear deteriorations in Ali during sparring and held back himself. I get that but it perhaps served to feed the delusion (Ali’s) that he still had something left to offer.

 

One thing I noticed about this fight, is whenever Ali was on his toes, Holmes would have to follow him around, wait for him to stop moving then unload. This was actually a recurring theme in Holmes' fights. A lack of offense on moving targets.

He'd have had nothing for prime Ali, or even 70s Ali imho.

 

Not to say it was the case for the whole fight - but I do think Holmes was a bit wary at least in the early rounds. Not being sure what Ali had left and possibly up his sleeve.

I remember Holmes saying that when he sparred Ali (in prep for Foreman) he had no idea that Ali was going to take laying on the ropes (as he often did with Larry in sparring) into the fight with him.

I was very young when this fight went down - but even I saw an Ali victory as very unlikely - the quality of Holmes performances as at the time vs those of Ali (which were 2 and 2+ years prior) made it a no brainer.

But, Ali was the proverbial miracle man - who had defied the odds and conventional rationale several times before.

Therein lay the hope, pundits already having been burnt before when they had counted Ali out - and that hope absolute, was akin to the misplaced confidence in Jeffries in his comeback.

For mine, Ali was far worse off - the true extent of which wasn’t necessarily known before the fight but something that became painfully apparent after just a few rounds.

 

What fights pre Ali would you point to as an example of him doing the Marvis Frazier wind up thing? I'm trying to remember him doing it earlier career. I'm not sure he even did but could be wrong.

 

I have a World Boxing mag from 1980 leading up to the fight. The cover is Larry Holmes-" I'm Going to Crucify Ali!" strange comment from a guy who didn't want to hurt Ali that night.

 

Perfect timing for this clip Swag, Ali sparring Holmes and dancing for a change - Holmes is trying to catch him but having little success -

This content is protected

 

Yep, this was how Larry spoke leading into the fight - he also said he was going to knock Ali out as soon as it was possible.

 

Hype.

 

What’s he supposed to do to sell the fight? Tell the world he considered it a glorified sparring lesson and explain he’s going to try not to hurt the old man?

Don’t believe the hype.

I think Larry fought like a champion should fight — the way you respect an opponent in any sport is you prepare seriously and show up and do your best. If you don’t, if you take someone lightly, you’re disrespecting them and the championship (not to mention the paying customers).

Easy to say now that Ali didn’t have it but going in he’s the lightest and looks the best as far as in shape that he’s done in years. He’s the greatest of all time and you don’t enter a fight like that without the thought of being prepared if he has one great effort still left in him (people wrote off his chance against Foreman and you saw how that worked out).

I do think Holmes had a lot of mixed feelings. He liked and admired Ali but he also was trying to establish himself and get out from under the legend’s shadow.

It’s a fight I haven’t really been able to watch since it happened — maybe a quick video ‘highlight’ here or there at most — but I seem to remember Larry showing compassion at the end and trying to get it stopped so he didn’t have to keep pounding on Ali anymore.

It’s a hard business. You can’t really defend the heavyweight championship with your intent being to not do any damage to the opponent. It’s not tennis or billiards — you don’t ‘play’ boxing.

 

Due respect Rules but putting Holmes own words and expressed intent down to hype seems too easy a dismissal.

Tbh, the only one really hyping pre fight was Ali.

Holmes basically and without nonsense said he would do what many other fighters naturally say they will do if they feel sufficiently capable - that is, knock their opponent out.

Stating his intention to do same doesn’t even touch on true hype. Crucify is a strong word but then Ali himself was regarded by many in biblical proportions - and given far more chance than warranted as at the time.

I’ve also read Larry was absolutely punishing his sparring partners in the lead up, logging his highest number of rounds to date - and a photo of Ali was hung at Larry’s camp - drawn over, depicting Ali with blackened eyes and swollen features - an every forecast of how Ali did in fact end up.

And really, who was Larry serving by “confessing”‘that he took it easy on Ali? Imo, that had to be purely for Larry’s benefit - let’s say Larry did hold back, he could’ve gilded the lily (motivated by his apparent love and respect for the man) and said Ali is amazing, though I tried, I could not knock the man out.

Finally, if he was capable of doing same, true mercy could be viewed as Holmes putting Ali out as soon as was possible, lessening the protraction of hurt.

Here’s an IV (see below) with Ali and Holmes just prior to their fight - I don’t detect hype in Larry’s words at all, just a matter of fact forecast of what he was going to do and his motivations for doing same - expressly adding that he wouldn’t take it easy.

And note, Larry is well aware of Ali’s known deteriorations (as at that time), which he logically and factually outlines, going so far as to say he didn’t even know if Ali could go 9 rounds anymore.

Of course, I don’t just take Larry’s word or rest a case on it, but at least in my eyes it appeared that, for the better part, Holmes did indeed try to put Muhammad down and out.

This content is protected

 

Two things can be true. Holmes came in with the intent to knock his opponent out (nothing wrong with that) and prepared to be his best in his biggest fight (naturally).

But I just went and looked at the 10th round. Holmes’ corner is screaming at him to throw the right. Ali is on the ropes throwing literally nothing back and just covering up. And Larry just keeps jabbing … not sledgehammer jabs but just scoring jabs. And many of those to the body. When he throws the right hand (which isn’t often), it is also often to the body and never with ‘bad intentions’ — especially considering this is an opponent who offers no resistance and no reason to not tee off as there’s no threat of a big counter — but mainly to score.

So I think he showed compassion as best as one can in a situation like this once it became clear that Ali was a shell. Yes he wanted to stop him … but that doesn’t mean he wanted to hurt him. And he doesn’t seem willing to really cut loose late in pursuit of that KO.

 

Sure, I’ve said before IF Larry held back in any way, it was only very late in the fight - and that he certainly tried his best to KO Ali prior to.

Must’ve been hard to look at that again - I haven’t rewatched it for several years. Well before my time but I find Louis vs Marciano difficult to watch also.