Tell me about the history of PEDs in boxing

You are an excellent poster, but you are very wrong here.
A bunch of folks DO use PEDs.
But it is not remotely "proof" to take several boxers from Ancient Times, before modern training & with a much smaller population to display the limits of what is naturally achievable.
Some take PEDs & are not even athletic looking.
Some folks like Tyson-& others much larger than him-have immense physical talents.
If Carnera-the muscular size of the biggest boxers you can think of, & likely more so early/when he was a strongman...ate little & started boxing before steroids were even invented.

If he was around today you might use his size as proof of juicing.
Others have much more athetic potential than him-naturally.
Nutrition, training for explosiveness & endurance, pliometrics-a differentr landscape than long ago.

Again I am not denying that many use.
But that does nothing to establish either that even most do (we do not know)...
OR that nobody can be bulky & more athletic than say Max Baer.

EDIT: seeing your last post, no Basketball is a very good example.
Both sports have a few demands upon reaction time, performance, reflexes, B-Ball players take some punishment (more late last century, but there were already super-athletic men then).

It is just not true that the only way to achieve great ability when larger in boxing is drugs.
Although some use them & DO need them to be as good.

 

I said artificially enhanced which just means the whole general modern way of doing things that was never around before. That’s the difference. You couldn’t get that from that size man until a certain point. It’s historically recorded that way. There literally is no argument on this.

The PEDs are a massive factor though. I don’t know how anyone cannot make the connection between these “modern advances” in diet, nutrition, science and drugs improving the taller guys reaching new potential that was previously un-achievable in that size man in boxing.

if it were possible to so control the next generation in such a way that they only have access to what was available in the 1930s you would see a massive drop off in Superheavyweights. Without the benefits of these advances. It would go back to Valdes and Firpo and Max Baer type men who looked and fought with that kind of capacity.

Combat is unique. Comparisons with games cannot be seen as sensible at all. I don’t see it.

 

Sorry you are very wrong that combat cannot be compared to other sports.
There are degrees of difference in all sports, but ther skills you list are applicable in different ways in tons of other physical & competitive activities.
Things having to do with toughness & determination too, & while ability to withstand pain & punishment is particularly strong in fighting, that does not effect the argument about skills & how they developed-new techniques & PEDs are the question here.

"Artificially enhanced" does not literally & intrinsically mean new ways of training.
From the first time a certain ancient Greek lifted a a growing calf over his head daily, to manual labor & seeing the results, to learning to eat heartily & all what we call old-school boxing now-it is natural for humans to use basic empirical observations & theories to improve performance.

That phrase seems to the usual, reasonable person to mean something where modern science develops substances that allows us to tranform not only our basic capacities but body beyond what would ever be possible without doing something as UNreal as shoving many times the normal amount of male hormone into our systems + combining/stacking drugs to maximize effects.
And drugs that allow greater red blood cell #s & efficacy, blood transfusions, etc.

You did not get the precise level of size & skills in the past-or it was very rare.
There is always argument about everything, but we agree here.
However you are incorrect with your (very useful, thanks) thought experiment that we would see only guys like Valdes, Firpo & (Max, right?) Baer without drugs.

The truth is somewhere in between.
As someone who has lifted for decades & read & watched a fair amount of stuff about natural potential & observed a lot...Those dudes were neither likely having as much potential as those generally taller & bigger boned, & they did not maximize their muscularity & strength.

Of course you will argue that there is a limit to how big is useful to get in boxing, & you are correct.
However the grey area is something like The Rules.
Have shorter fights, bigger gloves, allow more clinching-& that selects for more behemoths.

Have less of this, some guys will still exceed your unholy trinity ;-) in size strength & athleticism...
But certainly there will be some regression due to no PEDs for anyone, & the rules naturally select for certain types & niches being more common.

Wilder for all his flaws dominated due to freakish punching power, height, length, relative speed & toughness.
Nothing about his look, body, size suggests he is not natural.
Maybe he is not, but no need to postulate this at all.
His legs are almost anorexic, thighs listed at 18"-& for a 6'7" HW-are more like a female supermodel than even an average OLD school HW!

Fury may have enhanced beyond "boar meat", but he does NOT carry that much muscle as other massive men.
Even AJ, being mid 230's at 6'5" when he needed speed & mobility instead of up to mid 250's was eminently achievable in the old daaaaze.
And under old rules that would likely be the most he would be.
An he is called "robotic" & a "stiff bodybuilder", not quite a super-athlete.
Lewis would have stayed around the late 220's at the same height.
But the rules & there enforcement encouraged him to reach the 240's, still fairly lean.

I dunno if he often, rarely or EVER juiced.
But with so many more people potentially competing, advances in training, hard work...
Nothing he did was so outrageous that you need to postulate cheating to achieve it.

 

Everyone in the sport has used them at some point or another.

 

That is extremely unlikely.
It is possible the vast majority used at least once.
It is possible that most never even dabbled.
We can point to reasons for usage & deterring it, including fear for health, exposure, reputation, honor, want to respect themselves & not feel like a fake, shame, social pressure, skepticism or disbelief about their efficacy...

None of these things NOR the opposite arguments listing general incentives, goes any way in establishing how common they are.

It would be laughably naive to claim nobody used them that was never caught.
Even worse is assuming everyone ever caught was a set up or an accidental ingestion (even though this must happen occasionally...)

Also irrational is to be so extremely cynical as to assume with no specific, strong evidence that everyone ever competing has been a cheater & liar.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".
This is a basic tenant of discerning what is proven even likely, let alone true...
And in disttinguishing science from pseudo-science.

What the extremely naive AND the insanely cynical do not do is provide anything beyond general, faith-based/what they want to believe speculations.

 

It kind of should. I’m happy to use a different term that explains it. “Modern benefits”

we will have to disagree on this one. In any boxing gym you can witness athletes that look fluid right up until they participate. They don’t make that transition with the smoothness at all. Not in the highest level.

You did however get athletes that precise level of size and skills in games and sports. This is rather telling I think.

we agree here that the limit to how big is useful has expanded with time because of a combination of things. Chiefly that sports science allows larger people to reach their sporting potential in combat sports.

yes these factors like gloves and rounds are factors…also with less fights per career there must also be less experience gained among the size of fighter that could deal with giving away so much size.

did Wilder really dominate? He dominated a portion of the division that was based on a pairing between Chris Arreola and Stiverne. This did not represent the top. Joshua dominated another portion on the division based on a pairing between Vyacheslav Glazkov and Charles Martin that decided another belt claim. Neither vacant title fight represented the best of the division. so in reality Joshua and Wilder each defended a position in the rankings below that of an actual champion until they lost to better fighters.

Fury was a cheat. And it’s on record that he was. Perhaps he was levelling the playing field. A sign of the times. I wonder what he would look like in an earlier era?

who knows what AJ would look like and even be in the old days? Maybe he could be as good as Firpo?

Lewis at least was a full time international competitor as an amateur. Two Olympics. But then again, he was campaigning in that new Olympic division that had not existed before called Super-Heavyweight. Lewis was part of the first generation that probably grew up with the benefits that allowed so many big guys to grow up fighting the same sized guys. A divisions worth of them. Brand new situation. First time ever. But you have to wonder how it is that it became possible.

You have to wonder. I think Lewis was certainly proficient enough to be the kind of fighter good enough to control pace while carrying excess weight in another era like Jack Johnson would. He was experienced enough by then to carry it.

Lewis was a great enough fighter without his size. I still think Lewis became a little restricted the heavier he got. He was good enough and hit hard enough to get away with it. Lewis would qualify as an exception to a rule.

 

I appreciate the point by point engagement, I shall return the f(l)avor!

My first point is that other than PEDs, advancements on training methods are not at all intrinsically artificial.

In other sports many look good until they compete at the highest levels.
Even NBA players need to get into game shape through playing at the top level regularly, & often need to hone skills to succeed even if they are good-excellent at lesser levels.

Good point on shorter careers not allowing smaller/less huge guys the ability to adjust to size disparities.

I think sports science has let larger athletes gain disproportionate advantages in other sports.
Such as Randy Johnson & Usain Bolt-both huge for their sport-needing time & training to develop.
When you are so long it is more difficult to coordinate things as effectively.
Ditto for massive NFL players, although brute size & strength needs less refinement.

You are talking about the lineage or descendant line of who AJ & WIlder fought?
OK, although they both dominated. I do not see who was ready to dethrone Joshua.
Although sure he & Wilder should have fought.
Although just how far they got reinforces my point-Wilder had nothing that looked fake about what skills (limited) & physique he developed-& how rapidly he gained ability & size.
Even though I am critical of him as a boxer & somewhat (like about Fury) as a person, know PEDs seem needed or likely used.

Fury's excuse is likely bogus.
Although I have seen the case taken up ably here, we dunno if he transformed his skills with PEDs.
Or used regularly.
You ask what he would "look like"...Nothing at all unusual about his looks, strength, most all abilities...
Being so tall & long is unrelated to chemical enhancement.
The one thing that is would be his reaction time & speed FOR his size.
If it turns out that what he took enhances this, it would be damning.

Firpo was clumsy & relatively unskilled.
AJ is much more of an athlete; & this must be IN PART due to modern training.
Look at his program, Firpo did & had access to NOTHING like he did.
Now maybe he got to the mid 250's with fairly huge arms with chemical assistance.
But I can tell you from decades of observation & reading, at 6'6" this IS quite possible for

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Him back in the mid-230's at that height, cut & looking for greater speed & endurance?
That size is perfectly consistent with what Firpo was for his height & body fat level-& betchya he never did much lifting either. Although some hard work/labor is likely...

Fair enough on Lewis.
However I mean to emphasize that SOME can achieve what he did-& he also coasted the waves of rules that benefited his size-with merely excellent training (& an amazing trainer in his case), without any PEDs.
Others DO need & seize that benefit.

Someone like Tyson was naturally faster & more muscular than (the size) what Lewis had to work for.
Strong young & poor & before boxing & even weight lifting.
There always will be outliers in ability, & when they are NOT cheaters & liars, those that are will make the honest men look to some like they are frauds.

 

yes. This is evident I think. I imagine the science has largely cracked the problem that was the old previous natural limitations on longer limbed specimens.

in Wilders case a man his shape without the modern science would probably lack so much strength and wind. There were men Wilders shape and size. Joe Louis used them for sparring in preparation for Carnera. But the fact they ever made the grade beyond sparring partner to Joe Louis is kind of telling.

I think a gangly guy in the old days needed more strength but the old conundrum was with that extra strength came extra weight that slowed them down. Natural Strong guys probably put more strain on their bones and ligaments carrying weight causing injury and it would hinder their training. I guessed the science is now there to help recovery during training allowing them to reach full potential.

Furry can carry weight and look aesthetically non athletic and yet fight at an incredible pace. Not sure that was something very common before.

I think it probably is damning already since Fury already failed tests. However, that’s not to say Fury wouldn’t make the grade in another time. He was a remarkably active fighter, comes from a combat lineage so would always develop into an experienced fighter good enough to produce much of what he has anyway. Without modern science he probably wouldn’t fight at that pace, he wouldn’t have the recovery to ensure the consistent training that allowed fury to develop as a fighter beyond a certain point. Without the science he is a more limited fighter. I think we can say that in all seriousness. And that would apply right across the board actually.

Firpo was a brawny type guy. He is described as a raw, lumbering oaf kind of thing. Undoubtedly potent all the same mind you, but limited compared to how an athlete of his proportions might look and develop technically today. I think the body shape itself has an impact on the required dexterity to acquire some of the technical points that later generations might master to a degree that is almost as comparable to more compact sized men. Joshua looks to have an entirely manufactured physique already. I don’t know what the starting point would be for him. We know he’s tall but that’s all. He is narrow across the hips. Once you get past the muscles, AJ’s neck looks kind of long too.

Right. Lewis showed the way really didn’t he? But to begin with, after two Olympics, he already is an accomplished fighter so his starting point is not ground zero. Lewis came through the Amateur Super Heavyweight division so against comparable sized boxers he wasn’t brought along using his size so much. That came later when he began to slow down and wanted to prolong his career under steward. I think Steward is responsible for developing a longer range guy maximising his length of arm and height. Lewis was able to carry more weight and capitalise on this.

Tyson probably would be closer to the stature of Floyd Patterson before science. I think without the proof, Tyson himself represents “Floyd Patterson on steroids” actually. Maybe he wasn’t on actual steroids but Tyson certainly represents a turbo charged, more explosive version of Patterson. This could be a complete coincidence that Tyson looked and fought just like a Floyd Patterson on steroids just in time for a period when Steroids were definitely widespread in all sports but there you are. What do I know?

 

We overwhelmingly agree!
Just consider that it absolutely a coincidence with Tyson.
There were always guys that tended towards that build.
Tyson demonstrably did not even need weightlifting to be strong, you must have heard what he did first time in the gym-& this was *without* any hard labor/farm work, country-strong like activity.
McVea looked like him all around. Tyson just developed more muscle, but not dramatically so.

Wilder is also leaner that old big men-in part due to having no legs.
We would have to look at his workout routines throughout time to see how much science contributed to his success.
Understand also that many more people & getting some away from sports like B-Ball make someone like him more likely.
Also in a way he is a kind of ironic regression...He does not have great skills, & in the old days they might not have given him a shot...But he & the world discovered his nuclear right hand.

I'd like to see

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i think fighters of Furrys size could in theory always replicate the style of fury in a non participation way. Trouble was they failed to translate it into the fight. So they concentrated on what else was effective for a big man to do within a ring under old limitations of training and diet. That is until the science came along that is. The science allowed more big men to participate. Enough to support a full division worth of large men rather than a sprinkles worth who managed to compete among faster fighters that were smaller. This meant they could practice and develop boxing techniques relevant to competing with someone of a similar size. Previously they had to adapt to always facing smaller people. So in answer to the question they advanced their skills because the science made the required competition possible.

I’m sure stature wise there were always similar shaped men. But before Mike Tyson, were these shaped men able to move and act like an explosive version of Floyd Patterson? With coordination. Timing. And pace?

one can only imagine the spectacle of Wilder pre science. A tall Bob Fitzsimmons?

in relation to the very tallest men, which Fury undoubtedly is, I would say his workrate is quite astonishing actually. He keeps up with everyone.

The Klit brothers used to gas unless they were controlling the pace. Even Lennox at his higher weight was struggling with his wind unless he was setting the pace. The mavrovik fight shows good evidence of this. Lewis was gasping to stay on top because the other guy was setting a faster pace. Whereas when Lewis himself was setting the pace say against Tua, Lennox could fight at a walk all night without breaking sweat. Even Just one beat more was telling.
Not so Fury. And he is a cheat.

second career Foreman was was probably always experienced enough, mature enough and good enough to do what he did in an earlier era. If any one could it’s him. Still, He had access to modern science. But he would only be levelling the field anyways.

this I agree with. His tempo is really quite high at a point in his career he should be looking to slow pace as he matures against heavier guys. You look at guys moving through the divisions and their pace adapts. Not so Usyk. The science is there now.

 

Much of this is right but repetition.
Again I am saying that I want to see what Fury does-just generally saying science without knowing what they do does not show how much-or even if-they benefit from modern training.
I neither know if Fury cheated appreciably for a while or not, nor what he may do to help his endurance.
You do not disagree that his pace is not very fast.
Just keeping up with other often huge men is not so impressive.

It is good, but nothing that seems difficult to believe could be done in the old days.
Ironically carrying more fat & less muscle-more like the old daaaaze-likely helps him re: how much oxygen he uses & how long he can last.

Tyson used old school methods.
From various things I have read over the years, nothing he could not have used in Patterson's time or before!
But like Carnera he is a genetic outlier-in his case mainly speed when carrying so much muscle.
You said "stature", likely believing it means overall build-no it just means height.
McVea was similar in both, & do we really know how much of the coordination & fluidity he had?

Like with Sullivan it was likely less.
But that does not show "science" accounted for Tyson's success-although I agree in general it like the rules effects bigger men-in ALL times outliers exist.
There will be more of them when the population & all the places where combatants come from expand.
And nutrition also helps make folks reach their genetic potential, at least in height-& health.

Sullivan may have had the same natural skills as Tyson.
But came along before modern fighting had advanced-so even if the training he had was pretty good, the theory & techniques less so.
Also being a big alcoholic from young will hurt anyone.

Again please look at & present specifics-what is Fury's literal punch output?
What about Wilder could not have been done many years ago?
I am open to the arguments, but I dunno when & how much "modern science" effects which fighters, assuming it always makes a big difference does not make sense.

In Wilder's case, his lack of skills but size & explosiveness does not seem a modern science or trained attribute. Neither his heart.

 

@Entaowed

 

The earliest case that I'm aware of was Muhammad Ali going into his 1980 fight with Holmes.

I'm sure there were plenty before him, but this was the first documented case I'm aware of.

Of course, being that it was Ali, people like to use the term "diet pills" instead of PEDs. That would be a diuretic, used for cutting weight or also ridding your system of actual real steroids. Modern fighters get suspended and called "cheats" for using diuretics. We do not give them the same benefit of the doubt

 

But in this case there is every reason to believe he was clean of steroid like drug enhancements.
The culture of using them ha not started yet. There is no indication Ali was interested in bulking up-I am uaware that he ever even lifted weights at all.
He also DE-enhanced his performance, became zobiefied-even though his Parkinson's was more advanced a year & change later, he was much better against Berbick.

Ali was using those pills like candy to lose weight.
There was no secret about it, he was naive & foolish about it-like a kid taking a bunch of vitamins to be like Popeye.

 

If you're still taking something to "help" you lose weight, that is by definition a performance enhancer.
The proper way to lose weight is through diet and exercise. Taking pills or "vitamins" enhances your performance in weight loss.
So we can give him every benefit of the doubt, and claim he is the one and only fighter to ever use PEDs for a "right reason", it still doesn't change that he took something synthetic to help him get an edge in his preparation for a fight.