That´s why I think Sonny Liston is overrated

I was beggining to think I was the only 1 who saw Tyson slightly outdoing Holyfield in the early going. I don't think post-prison Tyson ever regained the stamina to fight be a 12 round fighter again.

I've been labelled a Tyson nutthugger but try to remain objective and over time my opinion of Tyson has dwindelled a little.

Despite Tyson being somewhat past prime against both Lennox and Holyfield you have to give both massive credit for beating him. Lennox and Holyfield may have been past prime too, probably not quite as much though. Lennox aged much more gracefully as a boxer than Tyson did because he didn't need his foot on the gas so much

 

The mental weakness is a poor argument in the example of Tyson-Holyfield 1. Tyson kept coming and coming but Holyfield was too strong and too well conditioned and won the war of attrition.

What about the strong mentality he showed when he was shook up by Bruno & Rudduck?

Excuses are like assholes, everyone has 1 BUT:

Douglas: took the fight lightly, didnt train etc

Holyfield 1: out of the ring for years, not many rounds under his belt, lacked the stamina he once had and wasn't as polished as he once was

Lennox: No stamina and his foot speed had gone completely

 

Actually that version of Holmes may have beaten many champs in history - many thought he beat Spinks in his last fight.

Even that old Holmes may have edged out many fighters with his amazing jab. He went on to take 3-4 rounds against Holyfield 4 years later and beat Mercer. Lennox for 1 could be outjabbed, and it would probably be a closish fight. Holmes boxing ability may have edged out many, it would be foolish to write him off. Dempsey/Marciano both probably would have got to that older version of Holmes BUT they both had problems with boxers and Holmes still
had the best jab HW boxings seen.

How many in history would knock out that version of Holmes in 4 rounds? Holyfield was taken the 12 by Holmes 4 years later and lost rounds.

If only Tyson-Holyfield happened in 1991 and if only Bowe and Lennox got there shots in 1992-1993. We may have had the greatest era of HW boxing ever

 

Tyson was definitely a front runner, no doubts there.

 

Tyson was certainly a front runner post-prison. What about against Rudduck/Smith/Ribalta/Green/Tucker he was having no problem fighting the 12 back then or scoring late knock outs.

The fact Tyson was out of boxing for 4 years and didnt fight a contender for 5 years is very significant

Never beat Holyfield? Thats a possibility but Holyfield actually looked ready to go at 1 stage where Tyson had him wiht 3 uppercuts. A prime Tyson with more stamina goes the distance and makes it closer, he probably works the jab more and gets more shots off too.

 

NM

 

I think Liston's resume of wins is a bit behind Louis' and Marciano's. However, Liston did KO Patterson twice via 1st round KO! Patterson is on the level with the best fighters Louis and Marciano beat. I think Patterson is as nearly as good or slightly better than Schmeling, Baer, Walcott, Charles, and Moore. Patterson defeated Moore.

In truth, Louis lost to Schemling, and had major league problems with Walcott. I do beleive Walcott won the first fight with Louis. Maricano had to fight tooth and nail to defeat Walcott and Charles.

I tend to doubt Liston would have any issues with Schemling, Walcott, Charles, or Moore. He was simply too much for them. Perhaps Baer has a chance, though his skills were rather average.

The thing to focus on with Liston is, he blew away a good, but not great collection of contenders with shocking ease.

Liston required only twenty rounds in ten fights to finish off the following contenders:: Billy Hunter, Julio Mederos, Wayne Bethea, Frankie Daniels, Nino Valdes, Roy Harris, Cleveland Williams 2x , Zora Folley, and Albert Westphal. This is an average of two rounds work for Liston.

Louis and Marciano had trouble with quick boxer types. See the Pastor, Conn, Walcott, LaSstarza, and Charles fights. Liston matched up extremely well vs smaller boxer types. His weight, reach, defense and skills complemented an awesome arsenal of powerful punches. The smaller man had to get past Liston 84” reach and jab, venture in to no man’s land, avoid Liston right on the way in and counter hook to score. Trading with Liston was not an option.

Eddie Machen was a very good boxer type. He had good movement, a slick defense, and a better chin than the boxer types who gave Marciano and Louis fits. Yet Machen was simply powerless vs Liston.

Can you see how dominate a prime Liston was? He matched up well with up punchers, swarmers and boxers. How many other all time greats can say that? Liston’s weakness was lack of speed vs a bigger and faster boxer type, and questionable intangibles that could be brought into play vs fighters who could survive the first few rounds and mark him up.

 

Liston had one of the BEST LOOKS but the LOOK did not revail it all, I see him overated, Patterson admitted he was beaten Mentally before Both fights(FLOYD was Fragile) Big cat was already KO'd in 2 by174lb Bob Satterfield and Liston was not STRONG mentally either. Sometimes the Packaging can be decieving of the contents, and I think this could be a BIT of the case here

 

1. Spinks is hard to rate but maybe he would have done aswell as Moore/Charles did fighting similar opponents, maybe I have rated him too high, there was nowhere for him to go after losing to Tyson

2. Its hard to measure, I think Holmes may pull an upset against an ATG - Foreman for example hated movers. Put the old Holmes in with the other top 15 ATG, he would probably pick up 4 wins or so.

3. Well this is purely a style thing. Lewis had problems with people who could either outjab him or outreach him. Look at the Mercer and Vitali fights. I had Lewis beating Mercer 6-4, its not out of the realms of the possibility that if Holmes fought the same Lewis or catch him on an off night he'd win a 7-5 SD type decision. I'd expect Lewis to pull out the W but it maybe close

4. Yes and Spinks legacy suffers for facing the most aggressive front runner of all time too. If Spinks faced a Prime Ali instead of a Prime Tyson he probably would have gone the distance and lost more respectably

5. We haven't seen Tyson overcome much hardship but he never needed to in his prime because no one could push him. If he wasn't quite as good in his prime and he had back and forth fights with Holmes and Spinks maybe he'd be rated higher. Just because he couldn't survive adversity against Holyfield doesn't mean any ATG HW could pull off Holys gameplan. Especial to a prime version

Also many ATGs may not get past the first 6 against Tyson

 

This depends on how you view the Ali vs Liston fights. I think it is highly probable that Liston threw the second Ali fight. For my money, Ali's best performance was vs Liston in the first fight. He moved and boxed beautifully that night. If Ali had an average performance that night things could have been different.


The Ali fights were the only fights where Liston appeared to be mentally weak.

 

1. Yes but again its not Tysons fault no one could put him in adversity in his prime. And sometimes theres a fine line between very good and great and a very good fighter may give you a harder fight than a great fighter based on styles.

2. Actually no, Tyson didn't just collapse and go into a shell when he go hit. He kept coming forward but just wasn't as relentless as Holyfield at that stage of their careers. Maybe Holy would always be too relentless for him.

Styles make fights and Tyson wouldn't have had as much of a problem with Bowe, Ruiz and Moorer like Holyfield did.

 

Douglas didn't? Not a tip top Tyson but don't tell us that technically it wasn't his prime. Very much his prime, regardless of whether his peak had been cut short.