That´s why I think Sonny Liston is overrated

I'd say its up there with dempsey's competition.

 

I suppose in all reality,we could make valid pionts and shoot holes in anyone's career.Sonny was thought to be a champion for several years,and failed miserably.Yet the guy was unbeaten for 10,years,with a pile of terror stricken victims in his wake.Yes Machen and a couple of others went the limit,but they didn't try to win,they just wanted to survive.I'll put it this way,in head to head matches with most of the champions,prime for prime,Liston wins.

 

All I know was Patterson's camp tried to dodge him to the max...
I was young and stupid...and bet on Patterson twice vs Liston. On Liston twice vis Clay and wouldnt' you know it... I had money on Liston vs. Leotus Martin....basicly because I knew Martin had short arms.......you can see that Lison was "shot" I say it was more he was a bit out of shape.
Martin was still top ten or better contender at the time....Liston was in the talk of getting a title shot....Leotius Martin was suddenly hot and oh, yes, he was title ready...so we spoke before we found out the old man had detacthed his retina...before they could repair them....
one must wonder why Liston didn't get a title shot before, except he was too dammed dangerouse even as an Old man.

 

Maybe, but the man who makes him compitition so good is Clay, who embarrassed him twice and made him quit in the first one. Outside of Clay (in other words, his wins), he may be ahead of Dempsey, but not Marciano and he's not even close to Louis.

Louis' record against top2 contenders or champions: 20-3 (16 KO).
Liston: 5-2 (4 KO).
Marciano: 9-0 (8 KO).

 

Nice way to ignore a complete rebuttal of your worthless Marciano hugging post :smoke

You ask for the facts and ignore them - nice going ****** :-(

 

Lets look at quality over quantity

The following opponents could beat Dempseys/Marcianos best opponents. Lets see how they go against Marcianos comp:

Patterson (prime version Liston fought) beats Louis(shot version Marciano fought)

Williams (prime version Liston fought) KOs Walcott(old version Marciano fought)

Machen (prime version Liston fought) beats LeStarza (version Marciano fought)

Folley(version Liston fought)-Cockell

Valdes did beat the version of Charles that Marciano beat and Patterson did destroy the Moore Marciano beat

So Liston has poor comp? You might not agree with the head to heads but they are close head 2 heads, Listons having the edge because the fighters were in their prime at their best. Liston beat his comp far more emphatically than Marciano

 

But that is just your opinion.

In my opinion, Walcott would outbox Williams to a decision. And why match Folley up with Cockell? Archie Moore was much better and he'd beat Folley in my opinion, who had a really weak jaw.

And why match Machen up with LaStarza? It seems you are picking the lesser opponents from Marciano's resume.
Ezzard Charles, who you also didn't select for these fantasy fights, would in my opinion beat Machen.



What matters is how they did against the best of their time. This is not subjective. And both Louis and Marciano's record far exceed Liston's in that sense.

 

Not sure about this. If you add in Ali, ok. But IMO Marciano, Dempsey and Louis defeated better fighters than Liston. Of Course Liston ran though his guys with shokcing ease.

 

Lets not pretend Marciano/Dempsey/Louis fought a fighter in the same stratesphere as Muhammed Ali because they didn't and if they did whos to say they would have fared any better than Liston?

Basically my objective was to pick 5 of the best fighters from Listons resume that could beat 5 of the best from Marcianos. In this thread the biased author has derided Listons achievements and abilities and if 5 of Listons best can beat 5 of Marcianos best then it shows this critiscism is unfounded. I think their level of wins are on par but Listons were prime, Marciano had bigger names that were way past their prime.

Patterson beat the same Moore that Marciano beat even more emphatically, thats why I didn't match him up. I'm not saying there aren't names on Marcianos that could beat names

As for Williams-Walcott - when Walcott fought punchers he tended to get knocked out and he was a bit chinny, with Williams being a BIG puncher I see Walcott eating something that he can't handle at some stage. Ofcourse its a fight that could go either way.

The Ezzard Charles that Marciano fought was pretty much shot and was losing left right and centre so probably would have lost to most of the prime contenders. As mentioned Charles lost to the Valdes Liston beat. Prime Charles is a different kettle of fish

The bottom line is Listons competition was very good, certainly on par with Marcianos for the main part. Dempseys competition was **** poor in comparison to both Marcianos and Listons.

 

I would bet my house that Marciano, Dempsey and Louis would go the distance with Ali instead of quitting like a schoolgirl. The former always gave their best and would rather be carried out on a stretcher than to quit like Liston did. Hell, Mildenberg gave Ali a harder fight than Liston did. It is forgiveable that he lost to Ali, but the way in which he lost was really disgraceful.

So you think LaStarza and Cockell belong to the best 5 fighters on Marciano's resume? Because you choose them.

Well, that is just your opinion. Most people here (including me) think Charles still was one hell of a fighter when he fought Marciano.


If you want to, make a poll on who beat better opposition: Liston or Marciano. This is not meant in a bitter or personal way, mind you. Just that it would be interesting to see what the rest of the board's opinion is on this matter.

 

1. Did Duran quit like a schoolgirl too? You can rip on any fighter for bad performances. How about Dempsey losing to journeymen and a LHW, Louis for losing to LHWs, Marciano for being knocked down by an ancient LHW and an old ex-journeyman champ or on many observers cards losing

2. Well Lastarza was the 1 fighter who has an argument to have a win over Marcaino so YES. Cockell is borderline

3. Charles was shot. He had lost 5 times in the 3 years prior to facing Marciano. In the same year he lost to Marciano he would lose a futher 5 times, including losses against sub-par journeymen

4. I may do something similar to that later today

 

Comparing Liston to Nielson of all people shows how biased and stupid you truly are.

Liston destroyed all the best contenders of the era from 1955-1963 - so you think hes as good as Nielson?

Patterson is arguably better than anyone Marciano/Louis/Dempsey beat.

Liston beat fighters in their prime while Marciano beat old past prime fighters and small men

Dempseys comp is **** poor for a Great HW, he has the worst comp of any 'Great' HW. He didn't fight the 3 of the best fighters of his Era.

Louis comp is good but he doesn't have any standout GREAT names. Schmelling is excellent but no better than Patterson. Williams was every bit as dangerous as Baer and Machen was tricky and more proven than Conn.

You never counter the facts presented you but I suppose denial is necessary for a nationalisic Italian who needs to hang on to the 1 HW fighter they could possibly claim (Marciano).