That´s why I think Sonny Liston is overrated

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Luigi1985, Sep 26, 2007.


  1. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    Charles - 5 losses in 3 years prior to Marciano and 5 losses in 1955 the same year he lost to MArciano. Can't argue with the facts so just do what you normally do and ignore them

    Valdes isnt Listons biggest win by far BUT Well Valdes beat Charles before Marciano got to him didnt he - bad example to choose :smoke

    LaStarza is an excellent win (he beat Marciano after all and was a top contender), I don't deride Marcianos comp like you do to Listons. I put it in perspective and say its as good as Listons, both had good competition
     
  2. Luigi1985

    Luigi1985 Cane Corso Full Member

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    Are you such a dumbass or do you just play it? I didn´t compare Liston with Nielsen, I just wanted to show you how easy we can make a fighter greater than he actually was, when he just look at the paper for example. I have Liston at 12th in my AT´s - HW-list. Dempsey doesn´t have the worst resume, Johnson has the worst resume as a HW-champ. Your comparisons are just full of **** and totally wrong, you live in a world of illusions and lies. And the last sentences like in every posts of you, traditionally full of ****, aren´t true and you know that yourself, you just want to bother me, but it makes no sense, you can´t provokate me viá internet...
     
  3. Luigi1985

    Luigi1985 Cane Corso Full Member

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    LaStarza didn´t beat Marciano, that´s well-known by the insiders (you of course don´t know it), search for a fight report from a serious newspaper like the "New York Times" or search the VHS, it´s a rarity, but it´s available. You´re going on with the double standards, Valdes beat Charles? Yeah, right, but you don´t mention that Moore put a serious beating on him, the same Moore Marciano KO´d.
     
  4. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    Langford, McVey, Jeanette,, Fitzsimmons, Jeffries......I think not theres 5 fighters in the top50 HWs of all time
     
  5. Luigi1985

    Luigi1985 Cane Corso Full Member

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    McVey, Jeanette, etc., Johnson faced them when they just had 10 fights or so, that doesn´t count that much, when he defeated Burns for the title, why didn´t he give them once again a chance, when they reached their prime? And about my English, well, it´s not perfect, but IMO understandable, we can also discuss in Italian or German, I speak these 2 languages perfectly and error-free... you just come with such a ****, because you don´t know how you can counter me, you´re just sulky because I beat you in your own language, but don´t worry, almost everyone here would beat you verbally...
     
  6. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    Your ignoring that Charles was shot to pieces, yes Valdes lost to Moore, who was good but the same Moore was beaten more easily by Patterson than he was done by Marciano.

    LaStarza-Marciano 1 is a very debateable decision and many had Marciano losing, Marciano proved to be the better man in the rematch
     
  7. Luigi1985

    Luigi1985 Cane Corso Full Member

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    Fact is, that Charles showed in both fights against Marciano that he was in top-shape, I have fights from him against Bivins and Moore in the late 40s where he was IMO in his prime, and it wasn´t a big difference. But for you, without watchig fights that much (perhaps only sometimes a Tyson-best KO´s-vid at youtube), it is of course pretty difficult to discuss with here on this...

    btw, it´s right Patterson KO´d Moore in the 5th round, but he was in his prime and very young, Marciano showed against Cockell yet that he isn´t the same like he was for example against Louis, Matthews, etc., once again bad comparison
     
  8. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    Not taking sides here, but Rocky Marciano pounded Moore rather decisively. Rocky sustained a brief knockdown in the first round, but was only on the canvas for like a few seconds. I never saw the Moore-Patterson fight.
     
  9. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    Langford had around 40-50fights when Johnson fought him and was possibly prime with great wins under his belt

    He fought McVey/Jeannette plenty of times. Both may have had many more fights than there boxrec/official records let us know. Johnson beat all the other top black HWs of the era like Denver Ed Martin and Childs

    He didn't fight black challengers after he became champ because he wasn't offered big money for it and he was descriminated against by the authorities and hounded out the country. Johnson had the hardest time of any champion
     
  10. Luigi1985

    Luigi1985 Cane Corso Full Member

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    The hardest time, well, that could be. But that doesn´t mean that we must fantasize now and look through the rose-colored glasses again. Ed Martin or Childs were both nothing special, and you know that. Why don´t you mention that he struggled with the likes of Battling Jim Johnson, Hart, Dunning, etc.?
     
  11. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    The fact you ignore Charles lost 5 fights in 3 years prior to Marciano and lost 5 times the same year Marciano beat him says all we need to know about whether he was still a top fighter. He wasn't he was losing to journeymen frequently

    Looking in top shape for a few rounds and being in 15round championship shape are 2 different things. Tyson looked in top shape against Danny Williams but was clearly done just like Ezard Charles was. Leonard looked good before fighting Norris/Camacho but he was done too.

    I actually have a huge collection, I too think Charles looked good at times against Marciano and for times had the same sparkle but he was making more mistakes and didnt have the same legs he once had that would have kept him out of trouble.
     
  12. Luigi1985

    Luigi1985 Cane Corso Full Member

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    C´mon now, why are you doing such stupid comparisons? Charles knew that against Marciano it was a big chance, and he trained very hard and very well. And we all knew how good he looked. Before Marciano, he lost a SD against one of the greatest LHW´s in Harald Johnson, no shame for that, and he lost an UD against Valdes. He beat fighters like Brion, Layne, Bivins, Reynold, etc., who were all good contenders. He was still a top fighter.
     
  13. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    Theres no rose tinted glasses, he beat every top contender from his time and had not only 1 of the best defenses in the sport but was 1 of the best counter punchers.

    Jim Johnson - under modern scoring Johnson probably would have got a decision but he had a broken arm in this fight

    Hart - havent seen it have you, was it a robbery?

    Dunning - would have been a win in modern scoring, fighters back then had 100s of draws if it wasn't completely clear. Marciano/Louis/Holmes/Ali/Lewis/Holyfield would all have a good few draws under this type of scoring
     
  14. Luigi1985

    Luigi1985 Cane Corso Full Member

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    That´s my problem with you for example. Lame excusses. "Would, should, that could...", I want facts. I didn´t see the Hart-fight, but from fight-reports I read Johnson should have won slightly, but it wasn´t so one-sided that it can be called "robbery", and it´s normal when he can´t even beat a limited fighter like Hart, that some people criticize him for that. Why would Dunning be a win for example? Did you read their fight report to judge this? Your excusses are mostly just speculations, simply advised...
     
  15. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    A fighter can't turn the clock back no matter how hungry they are and Charles probably tried his best to get in shape for Marciano but he wasn't as good. Just like Ali tried to get in shape against Holmes it wasn't happening for him. A prime Charles whoops all those fighters - Harrold Johnson/Valdes.

    He was a top fighter of sorts, still managing to compete but he was clearly past his prime. He had a terrible year in 1955 after he lost to Marciano losing 5 times including losses to journeymen