The 140 Pound Tournament - Choose the Combatants

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by sweet_scientist, Oct 18, 2008.


Page 4 of 5
  1. Drew101

    Drew101 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    29,769
    8,298
    Feb 11, 2005
    Each poster gives their vote for a how a specific match would unfold and the winner moves on to the next round.

    And no need to apologise. I'm not sure if you were around when any of the other tournaments took place, so it's natural that you would ask. :good
     
    Drew101, Oct 19, 2008
    Drew101, Oct 19, 2008
    #46
  2. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

    42,723
    269
    Jul 22, 2004
    1. 50 lightweights better than a resume that includes champions like:
    Mayweather (given you want to give him the win)
    Corrales
    Casamayor
    Stevie Johnston (twice-the division no1)
    Bazan (beat Johnston)
    Lazcano (beat JohnstoN)
    Julio Diaz (future champ)

    I think not


    2. Many can't score fights, Castillo himself said he needed to 'start much earlier'. Mayweather won a close against a top opponent in his first fight at the weight, despite picking up injuries. He won wide in the rematch

    3. Sarron was the best FW in Armstrong's day? Debatable, Armstrong beat plenty of top FWs in his WW defenses though, but I'm sure u wouldnt count that 'as it didnt happen at the weight'. Mayweather beats Hatton at 140 without a shadow of the doubt, same goes for Whitaker with Chavez and probably Delahoya with Tyszu
     
    PowerPuncher, Oct 19, 2008
    PowerPuncher, Oct 19, 2008
    #47
  3. teeto

    teeto Obsessed with Boxing banned

    28,075
    54
    Oct 15, 2007
    Thanks Drew, looking forward to this getting underway.
     
    teeto, Oct 19, 2008
    teeto, Oct 19, 2008
    #48
  4. teeto

    teeto Obsessed with Boxing banned

    28,075
    54
    Oct 15, 2007
    I really hope no1 disputes this.
     
    teeto, Oct 19, 2008
    teeto, Oct 19, 2008
    #49
  5. sweet_scientist

    sweet_scientist Boxing Junkie Full Member

    13,744
    88
    Nov 8, 2004
    It's kind of due to the fact that I had Stevie Johnston beating him twice. I think Stevie is the better of the two and was on the way down when he fought Castillo, though Castillo was definitely developing himself. Castillo gave a much better effort in the rematch, but still got edged I thought.

    Given that Mayweather also beat him in the rematch, Corrales beat him, and Casamayor fought just about on even terms with him, I'm not THAT impressed with him. Though being around the 50 mark in terms of lightweights is no real disgrace if you know just how many good fighters have been in the weight class.

    So Castillo thought he lost?

    Armstrong beat Sarron and Arizmendi at featherweight, those are two good wins which occurred at the weight and which give him credibility in discussions there. Even still, if someone wanted to do a feather tournament and wanted to leave Armstrong out, I wouldn't protest that much.
     
    sweet_scientist, Oct 19, 2008
    sweet_scientist, Oct 19, 2008
    #50
  6. sweet_scientist

    sweet_scientist Boxing Junkie Full Member

    13,744
    88
    Nov 8, 2004
    Does anyone have a problem with the following 26 fighters being in the tournament?

    Packey McFarland
    Barney Ross
    Jose Napoles
    Julio Cesar Chavez
    Aaron Pryor
    Antonio Cervantes
    Nicolino Locche
    Duilio Loi
    Jackie Kid Berg
    Tony Canzoneri
    Eddie Perkins
    Wilfred Benitez
    Kostya Tszyu
    Meldrick Taylor
    Jimmy McLarnin
    Herny Armstrong
    Beau Jack
    Ike Williams
    Pedro Montanez
    Tippy Larkin
    Bob Montgomery
    Carlos Ortiz
    Billy Graham
    Jack Britton
    Ted Lewis
    Sammy Angott

    If not, then I'll lock them in as givens. What's left to do then is pick the remaining 6 fighters you'd like to see in the tournament. Below are some suggestions:

    Oscar de la Hoya
    Pernell Whitaker
    Buddy McGirt
    Alexis Arguello
    Ricky Hatton
    Carlos Hernandez
    Frankie Randall
    Pinkey Mitchell
    Mushy Callahan
    Johnny Jadick
    Esteban DeJesus
    Bruno Arcari
    Joe Gans
     Dave Holly
    Jack Blackburn
    Benny Leonard
    Roberto Duran
    Ray Robinson
    Joe Walcott
     
    sweet_scientist, Oct 19, 2008
    sweet_scientist, Oct 19, 2008
    #51
  7. scartissue

    scartissue Boxing Junkie Full Member

    10,383
    12,741
    Mar 2, 2006
    Sweet, I really think we should lose all those lightweight champs who were not really competing at 140. Let's face it, they were only participating in an over the weight bout for a payday. Lets name the guys that actually competed in this division, otherwise we're only making another lightweight tournament and calling it 140. I have put together a list - and there are lightweight champs on it - but that is because they also won the title at 140 or honestly competed at the weight. Also, I went one further just to give it a different facet. I named 24 champs and 8 solid contenders. This is to give it a feel all its own and not to leave out fighters that may be otherwise overlooked. They are:

    Jack Berg
    Tony Canzoneri
    Barney Ross
    Carlos Ortiz
    Duilio Loi
    Eddie Perkins
    Carlos Hernandez
    Nicolino Loche
    Antonio Cervantes
    Bruno Arcari
    Wilfredo Benitez
    Saoul Mamby
    Aaron Pryor
    Buddy McGirt
    Meldrick Taylor
    Roger Mayweather
    Julio Cesar Chavez
    Frankie Randall
    Kostya Tszyu
    Vince Phillips
    Pernell Whitaker
    Oscar DeLaHoya
    Floyd Mayweather
    Ricky Hatton

    Contenders

    Willie Joyce
    Kenny Lane
    Alfredo Urbina
    Jose Napoles
    Adolph Pruitt
    Esteban DeJesus
    Hector Thompson
    Alexis Arguello

    You guys are putting this together and doing a great job, so take this in the manner that it is only an alternative.

    Scartissue
     
    scartissue, Oct 20, 2008
    scartissue, Oct 20, 2008
    #52
  8. dpw417

    dpw417 Boxing Junkie Full Member

    9,461
    348
    Jul 13, 2007
    I like your grouping of the first 26...

    Six more?
    Think I'd like to see
    Buddy McGirt -very solid and underrated. Mcgirt may be able to beat a few favorites

    Oscar DelaHoya- Junior welter was just a momentary stop for DLH.But Very powerful for the weight. Able to carry power up to junior middle.

    Frankie Randall - Just want to see him get a shot. Two main fights I remember were against Rosario and of coarse the first with Chavez (never saw the second one) Very nice straight right. Motivated and tough. Could he pull an upset or two? It'll be nice to have some underdogs...You never know?...

    The great Benny Leonard- Mainly because I would like to see how the board feels he would do in the very tough field.

    There are four...Let's get some more opinions.

    Are you ready to ruuuummmmble?....
     
    dpw417, Oct 20, 2008
    dpw417, Oct 20, 2008
    #53
  9. la-califa

    la-califa Boxing Addict Full Member

    6,292
    53
    Jun 12, 2007
    Carlos Hernandez over Carlos"Bollilo"Gonzalez? Where's Miguel Cotto?
     
    la-califa, Oct 20, 2008
    la-califa, Oct 20, 2008
    #54
  10. sweet_scientist

    sweet_scientist Boxing Junkie Full Member

    13,744
    88
    Nov 8, 2004
    Cheers for the input guys, but I'm at a loss now....

    I can see the merits in going scar's way so as not to turn it into another lightweight tournament, but the idea that guys like Whitaker, de la Hoya and Mayweather are more deserving for beating guys like Pineda, Gatti and a Chavez with a pre-existing cut who had already robbed Frankie Randall, and leaving out guys like Ike Williams, Beau Jack and co who kicked a LOT of ass at 140, just seems kinda wrong to me..

    I'm happy to go either way on this, perhaps a few more views on it will sway the issue one way or the other.
     
    sweet_scientist, Oct 20, 2008
    sweet_scientist, Oct 20, 2008
    #55
  11. la-califa

    la-califa Boxing Addict Full Member

    6,292
    53
    Jun 12, 2007
    How about to qualify. a 140 lb. Champion must have at least five title defenses? That should weed out the true 140 pounders.
     
    la-califa, Oct 20, 2008
    la-califa, Oct 20, 2008
    #56
  12. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

    52,914
    44,733
    Apr 27, 2005
    We'd be lucky to have 6 good names i think. Be too restrictive IMO.

    Could we possibly look at just fighters who did their best work at 140? How would that list look? We'd have to abandon it or something of it's ilk from other divisions tho. 140 just seems to need it's own special criteria IMO, whatever it turns out being. My rule would exclude Chavez which would be pretty unfair, gawd i don't know.

    Maybe just cut out Duran and SRR and make it free for all apart from that, with a small asterisk over the event. I'd be in that. Include Whitaker, Chavez, Napoles, Armstrong ETC.
     
    JohnThomas1, Oct 21, 2008
    JohnThomas1, Oct 21, 2008
    #57
  13. sweet_scientist

    sweet_scientist Boxing Junkie Full Member

    13,744
    88
    Nov 8, 2004
    How's this for a totally arbitrary, but not altogether unfair criteria.

    At least one of the following needs to be satisfied for entry into the tournament:
    1. At least 3 defenses of a title at 140, or
    2. Beating or arguably beating a great fighter at or near the peak of their powers at 140 and having a couple of other good wins at 140, or
    3. Beating at least 4 good fighters at the weight.


    With this criteria, the following guys miss out:
    Duran
    Whitaker
    Mayweather
    de La Hoya
    Robinson
    McGirt

    To me that sounds fair. All the above fighters did their best work in other divisions, and have had an opportunity to participate in tournaments in other weight classes.
     
    sweet_scientist, Oct 21, 2008
    sweet_scientist, Oct 21, 2008
    #58
  14. jyuza

    jyuza Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,394
    8
    Sep 12, 2005
    I agree with Scientist, we should keep fighters who proved themselves in the division and forget about Mayweather or Whitaker.
    Plus, the likes of Ike Williams and Beau Jack are, to me, far more interesting to put in the tournament.
     
    jyuza, Oct 21, 2008
    jyuza, Oct 21, 2008
    #59
  15. sweet_scientist

    sweet_scientist Boxing Junkie Full Member

    13,744
    88
    Nov 8, 2004
    :good

    Perhaps we should have another criterion that fighters must have some film footage available so that we can at least have a decent idea of how a fighter fights when we make a stylistic breakdown.

    As such, no Walcott, Britton, Montgomery, Joyce, Jadick, Callahan, Mitchell, Holly, Blackburn or Montanez.


    As such, we are left with these 32 names:

    Packey McFarland
    Barney Ross
    Jose Napoles
    Julio Cesar Chavez
    Aaron Pryor
    Antonio Cervantes
    Nicolino Locche
    Duilio Loi
    Jackie Kid Berg
    Tony Canzoneri
    Eddie Perkins
    Wilfred Benitez
    Kostya Tszyu
    Meldrick Taylor
    Jimmy McLarnin
    Herny Armstrong
    Beau Jack
    Ike Williams
    Tippy Larkin
    Carlos Ortiz
    Billy Graham
    Ted Lewis
    Sammy Angott
    Carlos Hernandez
    Frankie Randall
    Esteban DeJesus
    Bruno Arcari
    Joe Gans
    Bruno Arcari
    Benny Leonard
    Kenny Lane
    Vince Phillips

    We could perhaps squeeze in a Ricky Hatton, Saoul Mamby or a Roger Mayweather if you like. Or we could stick with the 32 just named and get the show on the road with a random draw.
     
    sweet_scientist, Oct 21, 2008
    sweet_scientist, Oct 21, 2008
    #60
Page 4 of 5