This is a thread that attempts to unravel this period of heavyweight boxing. I hope to get educated by and also educate the very limited number of posters who are interested in this era. There are a lot of misconceptions about the period, that records are too incomplete, that bare knuckle was dominate, that glove boxing was very primitive etc. I'll start the thread with my opinion of the beat fighters by resume in that decade with gloves. 1-Sullivan 2-Jackson 3-kilrain 4-Burke 5-Mitchell 6-McCaffrey 7-cardiff 8-killen 9-Godfrey 10-Slavin 11-Miller 12-Greenfield 13-Fryer 14-Nolan 15-CC Smith 16-Cleary 17-McAuliffe 18-Goddard 19-Laing 20-Lees 21-Jem Smith 22-Ashton 23-Lannon 24-Clow 25-Dooley
Start with this thread by @SimonLock (with other knowledgable contributors iirc). Your prayers are answered. Hopefully Simon is still around and will contribute here. https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/monthly-heavyweight-rankings-from-1882-onwards.690313/
You are bang on correct, Simon Lock influenced me a lot with that great thread and I indeed modified some of my opinions based on that.
Sullivan and Jackson being head and shoulders above the rest is all I’d want, though I’d put Jackson above John L.
Yes, these two in a league of their own during the decade, no problem putting Jackson at number one. I went with Sullivan as from 1880 to 1887 he was clearly the man, Jackson had the Farnan losses and he only announced himself on the World stage in 1888 with the wins over Godfrey, McAuliffe, Cardiff and Jem Smith. But either are perfectly acceptable. There are four strands to be looked at when studying the period, Britain, Australia/NZ, Black America and White America. Australia was really strong and their top two exponents Larry Foley and Abe Hicken met in 1879 and Foley proved dominant. This was a bare knuckle fight for the Aussie middleweight title, Foley had fought a 40 round draw the previous year with Peter Newton, another top middleweight, that bout with gloves. Hicken and Foley both opened boxing schools and ushered in Marquis of Queensberry rules. Foley tried to give several stones in weight to Professor William Miller in 1883 but was bested after 40 rounds in a heavyweight title clash. Foley continued to box exhibitions into his senior years and actually tackled Jack Burke in 1888 and while it was declared a draw, he was well beaten. However, he did pick up decisions over Newton and Tom Lees. It was as a coach that Foley won most fame as he passed on the knowledge that he had gleaned from as far back as 1877 when he sparred a lot with the great Jem Mace, among the legion of stars he trained were Young Griffo, Bob Fitz, Paddy Slavin, Peter Jackson, This content is protected
Hi guys, still here. Not really looked at this in a while, but here’s an attempt at a ranking to start the decade, at the end of 1879: 1) John Dwyer, 32, American Bareknuckle Champion. - Won the American bareknuckle title against Jimmy Elliott in ‘79 - Mixed results against William Miller in exhibitions - Wins over Steve Taylor in ’76 and ‘77 2) Paddy Ryan, 28, Irish-American Boxer - Points win over William Miller in ’79 in gloves - Untested in bareknuckle contests 3) William Miller, 33, Australian Boxer and Wrestler - Mixed results against John Dwyer in exhibitions - Points loss to Paddy Ryan in ’79 in gloves - Points win over Joe Goss in ’78 in gloves 4) Joe Goss, 42, Former American Bareknuckle Champion - Won the American bareknuckle title against Tom Allen in ‘76 - Points loss to William Miller in ‘78 in gloves 5) Charles AC Smith, 19, American Boxer - Win over Steve Taylor in ‘79 - Several other recorded wins - Claims to be the World Colored champion 6) Bill Farnan, 28, Australian Boxer - Won a tournament in ‘79 7) John L Sullivan, 21, American Boxer - Win over top middleweight George Rooke in ‘79 - Several other recorded wins 8) Jim Stewart, 36, Scottish Boxer - Drew with Tom Allen in a fight for the British title in ‘79 - Beat Tompkin Gilbert in ‘79 9) Jack Knifton, 24, Former English Champion - Won a tournament in ’77 for the English title - Inactive for over 2 years 10) James Dalton, 25, American Boxer - Good performance in exhibition against Dwyer in ‘79 - No other fights recorded 11) Jimmy Elliott, 41, Former American Bareknuckle Champion - Won American title in ’67 before being imprisoned from ’70 to ‘79 - Loss to Dwyer in ‘79 12) Steve Taylor, 28, Irish-American Boxer - Losses to Dwyer in ’76 and ‘77 - Loss to Smith in ‘79
Excellent as always, I'd have Foley above Farnan at this point. Tom Allen didn't fight again after 1879 but actually didnt retire until 1883, he boxed some exhibitions, Taylor never accomplished much but Alf Greenfield was begining to show and was very unlucky to lose on a foul to Harrington when on top. My 1880 year end top ten, in no particular order, Foley, Ryan, Miller, Goss, Dalton, Sullivan, Rooke, Elliot, CC Smith, Greenfield, (Dwyer just retired)
Heres my list of the 25 "HW contenders" that debuted before 1890. Mitchell Kilrain Sullivan Godfrey Gus Lambert McCaffrey Peter Jackson Denver Ed Smith Slavin Herald Killen Billy Wilson Cardiff Lannon Mickey Dooley Jem Smith McAuliffe Fitzsimmons O Donnell Corbett Peter Maher Choynski Creedon Goddard Tut Ryan My main questions from your list is why Jack Burke being ranked so high and your omission of fighters that on my list in favor of some guys I don't really think were that good. I kind of figure him and Greenfields inclusion is based on them fighting Sullivan but why Miller, Fryer, Nolan, CC Smith, Laing and Clow. I'm more familar with Cleary, Ashton and Lees.
Burke is terribly underrated, his placing has little or nothing to do with fighting Sully, though he did better than most at the time. He had 5 clashes with Mitchell including a 77 minute bare-knuckle fight and held his own in all. He beat Dalton, Clow, Greenfield, Cleary, Glover, Foley, Boland, drew with Slavin, Kilrain, Nolan and Dempsey, bested a young James J Corbett in an exhibition and a lot more besides. Actually his resume in the decade is pretty close to the top. I think you are using a different criteria for you list, my 25 was for accomplishments 1880-1889. Tut Ryan, Creedon, Choynski, Maher, Corbett, O'Donnell and Ed Smith, while most of them are great fighters, achieved much more from 1890 onwards. However, Lambert, Ed Smith, Herald, Dalton, Corbett, Choynski, and Wilson are in my 26-50 group for the decade.
Jackson didn't even beat Goddard and even got KD'd. Unfortunately for the above thought experiment the bulk of Goddard's career, and his hot streak, was not in the 1880's.
Thanks for the list Matt. I think Bill Farnan has to be in this list, he beat Jackson twice in 1884 and was being spoken of as a potential opponent for Sullivan until he lost to Lees in 1885. Article from 1884: https://ibb.co/hFBzQR8b I'm also struggling to see much of a case for Godfrey being so high. I'm struggling to put him in the top 10 in any year, let alone the top 10 in the decade. He drew with Kilrain and Hadley in 1882, beat Hadley in 1883 after a few draws, then lost to Kilrain in 1883, and lost to Jackson in 1888. I think your criteria of only looking at gloved bouts is a problem here, it misses key fights which in reality would have been factored in to public opinion at the time, and omits important parts of the decade's history. Why do you have Kilrain so high based on gloved results?
It was in chronological order. The first 18 on the list had extensive runs in the 80s. I put everyone to avoid making an arbitrary cutoff. I don't rank most of those guys high at HW except Slavin and Kilrain several of them have career records below .500 and others who weren't really HWs. The record of Burkes best wins against top fighters wasn't very good, and neither was that of Mitchell and Ted Pritchard. Burkes KO rate is low considering most of his wins were against debutants with his only major stoppage coming against a 35 year old Cleary who had been fighting since 1875. Burkes at the top of non contenders and could be argued for inclusion for sure off the Slavin and Kilrain draws(as could Pritchard) but not a lot to indicate hes one of the best HWs of the era and a lot to indicate hes not. Draws mean a lot less in shorter fights and are much easier to obtain even under the current rules. A lot of draws in the 80s weren't because the fight was actually tied but because depending on the jurisdiction wins were often only given for KOs. Slavin, Kilrain and Dempsey had 8,9 and 11 draws. To Burkes credit his draws with Slavin and Dempsey were fairly long. Slavin did come back and knock out Burke.
