The 60's Ali. Could he get away with a low guard today?

A large part of Muhammad's mastery was in getting his opponents to exert themselves more than he did, both in training and competition.

The low guard was certainly an enticing lure to get his adversaries to expend their energy in trying to exploit this illusion of vulnerability. Ali rarely had to work harder than his foes, mentally as well as physically.

He psyched out some with head games (like Jerry Quarry). Others were intimidated into exhaustion by his speed or ability to take a punch.

He fooled Foreman, Shavers (and possibly Bob Foster) into thinking he wasn't stunned when he actually was. Cosell noted with 1:15 left to go in round eight that Muhammad had Lyle perspiring heavily when Ali himself wasn't, even though Ron hadn't been exerting himself particularly much through the first several rounds. Ali thusly displayed that he was literally a cool customer, as well as figuratively so.

Naturally, it's also extremely wearing to miss a target repeatedly, as it is to have one's hardest punch seemingly do no damage when it finally does land. Later, SRL would always keep himself in nothing less than top condition with just two miles of daily roadwork, while victims like Bruce Finch would be doing ten miles, to little avail once the bell rang, worn themselves down in training, rather than building themselves up.

 

One thing the big heavies of today are deficient in is speed compared to the heavies of the sixties, seventies and eighties. I think they have traded speed for extra strength and power by coming in at a much heavier bodyweight.

I recently watched the second Ali-Frazier fight after quite sometime and I was really struck by the speed and intensity at which they fought. Leave alone today's crop of staid champions, even Lewis, Holyfield and Bowe did not fight at that speed and intensity.

I think speed as a prime quality for a heavyweight ended around the Holmes' era. Of course, prime Tyson could explode with the sudden burst of speed and power and Buster Douglas mimicked a close enough version of Ali to put away Tyson.

So i believe that the lumbering heavies of the present and the recent past would have an even lesser chance of catching Ali at his best than his contemporaries.

Norton's example does not really apply here because he never fought the 60's Ali. A prepared and not yet shot Ali who boxed and moved blanked Norton for the first five rounds during their second fight. A peak, sixties Ali would have blanked Norton throughout the fight losing only those rounds when he decided to rest or gave away by clowning.

Also don't forget his footwork, terrific head and even body movements, his sense of timing and ability to make an over reaching opponent pay by his exceedingly quick and sharp counters. And finally, so what if an opponent occasionally managed to catch him with a punch. He had the best chin of all heavyweight champions.

 

Ali would have an easier time with these lumbering oafs today than in his own era. His split-second timing and fast body and head-movement would give these slow-pokes fits today.:good

 

No;Ali couldn't even get away with it when he came back.

 

He would be able to get away with it with most heavy's in history. But its not like he did it all the time.

If he was fighting someone who he felt he had to keep his hands higher up -just now Wlad and thats it- he would.

 

Right, and it was specifically Cox's intriguing article I had in mind when making my comments. Ferdie Pacheco bought into the allegations of the more extreme injuries Jess was claimed to have sustained however. The fact that Pacheco's a physician has lent credence to the notion Dempsey inflicted the greater extent of damage reported, and furthered the belief that Willard could have continued with such exaggerated impairment.

True enough. Again, the "smoking gun" which would definitively settle matters in favor of Liston's claim would be the release of such an X-ray of Sonny's shoulder. Otherwise, the footage does not indicate he was restricted by such a dislocation.

 

Yessir.

 

One of Ali's strengths was his ability to adjust to his opponent's style and find a way to win.

If he fought Lewis or Bowe, he would probably have made the necessary adjustments to meet their styles. Patterson was a sfast or faster than the guys from the 80/s and could hit..

H to H Joe Lewis is the guy I'd give the best chance.

He would have to be very careful with Mike Tyson for the first few rounds.

 

THANK YOU, I'm tired of people making Ali out to be some GOD...Tyson was one of the few fighters whose speed would rival Ali, and if Cooper and Frazier could take advantage of "Ali
's defensive flaws, Tyson certainly could, he was better in all if not most categories compared to Cooper and Frazier. Tyson didn't just have fast hands, but his feet were much faster than given credit for.He cutt off the ring VERY WELL.

 

The 60s- Ali could do everything, even flying or things like that, Marciano on the other side would lose so SMW´s like Calzaghe or Mundine, I know... :tired

 

If Lucian Bute can do a low guard today...please

 

Foreman, while slow, has always had decent timing and accuracy despite poor technique -- note how in his comeback he was often able to land. Also note that in his younger days he was dead-on once he had anybody stunned.

Also note that when Ali fought him, his reflexes, speed and legs had diminished greatly.

The point I'm trying to make is that Ali did not get hit with many significant punches while laying stationary on the ropes. He was there, deflecting, blocking, reducing shots to glancing blows, pretty much doing a thorough job of protecting himself in a situation most heavyweights would have crapped their pants in mortal fear.

He had remarkable boxing sense. Great awareness of distance, the velocity and trajectory of a punch -- I don't believe it's conscious, but subconscious. His world seemed to move just a notch faster than it did for everybody else. RJJ would evoke some nostalgia in me years later regarding that.

Inlcluding Lennox Lewis, I believe a young Ali hands out a boxing lesson to whoever wants to study in these modern times. People envision Ali dancing on the outside -- something he wouldn't do against a Klitschko or anyone with a significant reach advantage against him. He would dart in and out, punching coming in with a straight one-two, and would use his superior sense of distance and speed of hand and foot to reveal the weakness of a size advantage -- against a fleet-footed opponent, they look awkward and sluggish, dragging one foot behind the other within the same timespan it costs the dancer to take five small steps.

 

Exactly. The low Ali guard was a tactic not a weakness - it drew his opponents into exchanges which was particularly important for Ali as he was a headhunter.

As Ali was a force-of-nature fighter with reflexes eons ahead of all his opponents, he would then be able to dodge and counter. (FTR, I believe that Terrell was both taller and quicker than Lennox Lewis although he was not so stylish).

As you say, if he felt this tactic was not working, he would have used another mid-fight. He showed time and again he was extremely adaptable.

On a related matter, I think most of the evidence that Ali was prone to good jabbers is built on post-exile observations. I believe the mid 60s incarnation could deal with any style, although 1977-78 Holmes would be a handful for anyone.